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Thread: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

  1. #31
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    Re: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I think this is a weak argument. There is a reason we don't release photos of rape victims to the press, either. It's so that the victims don't experience even more victimization than they've already gone through.

    Sorry. Your titillation is not sufficient reason. Thanks for playing, though.
    I thought there was no rape according to the government so that wouldn't be what is shown.

    Yours is not sufficient reason NOT to have them released other than the U.S. not wanting to admit crimes. If the government is lying then indeed not only do the pictures need to be shown, but people need to be going to jail.
    Last edited by TheNextEra; 06-09-09 at 05:39 PM.

  2. #32
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    Re: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Generals Petreaus (sp?) and Odierno have indicated this, and are supported in that assertion by Secretary of Defense Gates. Dear Leader accepts their assertion.
    I understand they say this, and I do put weight upon what they are saying. But I would like to see something in the way of them demonstrating how they came to that conclusion. They are taking an incredibly firm stance on the matter and making statement of fact assertions. If it's that clear, I'd like to see how they get from A to Z with that argument.

    I do not have primary empirical data to challenge their assertion, but, in view of the potential consequences (soldiers' lives at risk), I am prepared to take their assertion at face value. The generals especially have no dog in the political fight.
    Just like they had no dog in the fight regarding GITMO, torture, etc. But that didn't stop folks from rejecting their position. Are you now saying that you are willing to take Patraeus' word at face value and defer to his experience and judgment? How about Gates? Or would that only be on certain subjects?

    As for the "how"....as violence had been on the decline in Iraq last year, and only recently began to creep upward, there is considerable room for an increase in hostilities within Iraq, should the insurgents there be sufficiently motivated.
    What does that even mean? "Considerable room for an increase in hostilities." Is there a predetermined cap on how much violence can be perpetrated? Are we under that cap right now?

    There are no parameters on how much violence can be waged at any one time against our troops. There is only the operational capability of our enemy wage war upon us and their desire to wage that war. The operational capability is something our efforts can impact directly. Their desire to wage war is something they control.

    So that I'm clear, are you suggesting that we have somehow managed to lessen their desire to wage war against us, that they have consciously chosen to pull back on the level of armed violence they perpetrate against us? Because that is the only way in which we are going to make them want to "kill us more" if they have in fact decided to "kill us less." Otherwise these photos will not impact their current operational capability. Only their desire, and I contend there has been no lessening of their desire to kill us. In fact it's already on the rise and these photos have nothing to do with that.

    So I am again left wondering...how will these photos actually impact our enemies capability or desire to kill our troops?
    Last edited by Lerxst; 06-09-09 at 06:04 PM.
    *insert profound statement here*

  3. #33
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    Re: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Just like they had no dog in the fight regarding GITMO, torture, etc. But that didn't stop folks from rejecting their position. Are you now saying that you are willing to take Patraeus' word at face value and defer to his experience and judgment? How about Gates? Or would that only be on certain subjects?
    My criticism of Petraeus was that he commented on matters of policy that military men should not publicly discourse upon. Beyond that, I disagree with his interpretation things in that area.

    In regards to what will and will not put the troops in harms' way....I defer to his judgment in those areas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    What does that even mean? "Considerable room for an increase in hostilities." Is there a predetermined cap on how much violence can be perpetrated? Are we under that cap right now?
    As a matter of logistics, there is a practical limitation to the number of roadside bombs and suicide bombers that can be let loose in a given time period. The relative calm of recent months suggests we are still well under that practical limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    There are no parameters on how much violence can be waged at any one time against our troops. There is only the operational capability of our enemy wage war upon us and their desire to wage that war. The operational capability is something our efforts can impact directly. Their desire to wage war is something they control.
    You oversimplify. Substitute "desire" for "willingness" and your argument gets stronger. Neither capacity nor willingness is entirely beyond our control, nor is it entirely within our control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    So that I'm clear, are you suggesting that we have somehow managed to lessen their desire to wage war against us, that they have consciously chosen to pull back on the level of armed violence they perpetrate against us? Because that is the only way in which we are going to make them want to "kill us more" if they have in fact decided to "kill us less." Otherwise these photos will not impact their current operational capability. Only their desire, and I contend there has been no lessening of their desire to kill us. In fact it's already on the rise and these photos have nothing to do with that.
    I put it to you that the reduction in violence in recent months indicates our troops and the Iraqi forces have reduced the willingness and capacity of the insurgents to wage war. The increase in violence most recently suggests that trend is changing.

    The desire may not have changed, but the willingness certainly has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    So I am again left wondering...how will these photos actually impact our enemies capability or desire to kill our troops?
    I suspect it will increase their willingness to attack and kill our troops. That is not a risk I feel is wise.

  4. #34
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    Re: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

    If this amendment is dropped, Senator Graham and I will not go quietly into the night. And we will not do so because the safety of our troops and our nation of the American people is on the line. We will use all of the legislative tools at our disposal to see to it that this amendment prohibiting the release of these photographs of detainees will be adopted.
    Statements like this annoy me. This was almost word for word the excuse used to tell people like myself we should not oppose the Iraq war. The odds that this will endanger our troops is low to my mind. This does not meant the photos should be released, only that this excuse is a bad one.

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    Re: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by OxymoronP View Post
    Pelosi has set back women in politics for at least a decade.
    What an incredibly ignorant statement. Did President Bush the younger set men in politics back at least a decade?

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    Re: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    What an incredibly ignorant statement. Did President Bush the younger set men in politics back at least a decade?
    Well of course not. He was a decent president while Pelosi is an anus faced pus-pile of a hag.

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    Re: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

    As far as the torture issue goes? Who is it that has truely put our troops in jeapordy? The people who ordered and gave the approval to our soldiers to torture people that's who.

    Lieberman and Graham are both like the little Dutch boys with their fingers stuck in the hole in the dyke(Dam)...desperately holding back a impending flood of truth.

    In the end when the wash is done this will NOT be the dems or Obamas dirty little secret...mark my words...THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT.

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    Re: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    As far as the torture issue goes? Who is it that has truely put our troops in jeapordy? The people who ordered and gave the approval to our soldiers to torture people that's who.

    Lieberman and Graham are both like the little Dutch boys with their fingers stuck in the hole in the dyke(Dam)...desperately holding back a impending flood of truth.

    In the end when the wash is done this will NOT be the dems or Obamas dirty little secret...mark my words...THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT.
    Sort of like how the truth was allowed to flow freely when Pelosi denied having any idea that enhanced torture methods were being used?

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    Re: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

    Since when did the right start giving a rats ass about the health and well being of our troops?

    This fight has absolutely zero to do with that. It has everything to do with Cheney and his cohorts covering their asses.

    America needs to know the truth and I think it will know the truth.

    Yes Pelosi made them act like terrorists..go with that it's a winner.

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    Re: Photo Fight: Lieberman and Graham Threaten Senate Shutdown

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    Since when did the right start giving a rats ass about the health and well being of our troops?

    This fight has absolutely zero to do with that. It has everything to do with Cheney and his cohorts covering their asses.

    America needs to know the truth and I think it will know the truth.

    Yes Pelosi made them act like terrorists..go with that it's a winner.
    Either you don't follow the news or you are simply being obtuse in your rabid hatred of the right. Either way, it is not helping you formulate any kind of coherent argument.

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