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Thread: BNP Breaks Though To European Platform

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    Re: BNP Breaks Though To European Platform

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    It said BNP got gains at the expense of labour.....why would labour voters support a far-right party?
    The article is wrong.

    The BNP did not take votes from labour, labour voters stayed away from the polls hence driving up the BNPs percentage numbers. You need a % to get a seat and if the total number of voters in the area goes down (which happened) but the BNPs stays the same or gains slightly then the % increases and they get over the "magical" line.
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    Re: BNP Breaks Though To European Platform

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Far right because of low turnout
    Those more inclined to vote stayed behind.
    World economic crisis [we all know what happened last time it occured]

    Damn the irony
    US finally is left and Europe turns right
    The American right and the European right aren't really equivalent.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

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    Re: BNP Breaks Though To European Platform

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    yeah? So the really clever Fascists win?

    Why is the US surging to the left while Europe starts considering the far right?
    Europe aint starting to consider the "far right". Its been part of the political spectrum for a long time.

    Just because the UK finally got some far right radicals into the EP, does not mean that the far right is surging ahead in all of Europe.

    The fact is the far right has been present in European politics for decades. In France we have Le Pens party, in Italy we have Berlusconis backers in the North. In Denmark the far right party have been propping up the liberal-conservative government for almost a decade now. Almost every country I can think off except Spain, Germany and the UK have far right semi main stream parties that have been elected into national and local politics over the last two decades. The UK is merely catching up.

    Europe is in a "right wing" period in its political time frame in many countries. France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, partly the UK and others have all right wing governments and have had for some time. The left wing parties in many countries have had a hard time after the fall of the Soviet Union and many have had internal battles over succession and so on. Now with the fall of the US inspired right wing economic policies, the left wing parties will have a new breath of air and provided they can get over their internal fighting (France comes to mind) then they will most likely gain power over the next election cycle in many countries. Yes, the people do blame big business and greed for the economic crisis, and that leads directly to the conservative movement.

    One thing American's have to remember, we in Europe have more than 2 parties, and the differences policies and attitudes in said parties are not as wide as in the US political parties.

    If we look at the Republican or Democratic party, you see one extreme to the next. The Dems have far left leaning socialists (at least according to the yanks) and they have right leaning semi conservatives. That simply does not exist in most European parties to the same degree. The far left leaning democrat would be in a whole other party as would the right leaning semi conservative of the Democratic party. The same goes for the Republican party. The far right in the Republican party would be in the same ball park as the BNP, Le Pen's National Front and others. They would not be part of any Conservative party, because their views would be too extreme and they would be either kicked out or frozen out.
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    Re: BNP Breaks Though To European Platform

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Europe aint starting to consider the "far right". Its been part of the political spectrum for a long time.

    Just because the UK finally got some far right radicals into the EP, does not mean that the far right is surging ahead in all of Europe.

    The fact is the far right has been present in European politics for decades. In France we have Le Pens party, in Italy we have Berlusconis backers in the North. In Denmark the far right party have been propping up the liberal-conservative government for almost a decade now. Almost every country I can think off except Spain, Germany and the UK have far right semi main stream parties that have been elected into national and local politics over the last two decades. The UK is merely catching up.

    Europe is in a "right wing" period in its political time frame in many countries. France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, partly the UK and others have all right wing governments and have had for some time. The left wing parties in many countries have had a hard time after the fall of the Soviet Union and many have had internal battles over succession and so on. Now with the fall of the US inspired right wing economic policies, the left wing parties will have a new breath of air and provided they can get over their internal fighting (France comes to mind) then they will most likely gain power over the next election cycle in many countries. Yes, the people do blame big business and greed for the economic crisis, and that leads directly to the conservative movement.

    One thing American's have to remember, we in Europe have more than 2 parties, and the differences policies and attitudes in said parties are not as wide as in the US political parties.

    If we look at the Republican or Democratic party, you see one extreme to the next. The Dems have far left leaning socialists (at least according to the yanks) and they have right leaning semi conservatives. That simply does not exist in most European parties to the same degree. The far left leaning democrat would be in a whole other party as would the right leaning semi conservative of the Democratic party. The same goes for the Republican party. The far right in the Republican party would be in the same ball park as the BNP, Le Pen's National Front and others. They would not be part of any Conservative party, because their views would be too extreme and they would be either kicked out or frozen out.
    I think that some Neocons are equivalent to Le Pen or the BNP, but generally American conservatism is pretty different.

    The whole "small government" line is pretty absent from most European hypernationalists. I'd include American neo-cons with European hypernationalists because (despite their rhetoric) I think it's pretty clear they have no actual commitment to smaller government.

    European politics seem to hinge on nationalism versus internationalism (right versus left) but in the US that's not really a consideration. We're the biggest and strongest country in our area of the world and we're more then capable of operating independently, so the leftist "we can only make it together" line, which might be very true for say, Belgium (or even Germany or France), doesn't hold any weight here. Similarly the European far right argument that the surrounding countries are barbarians at the gate is irrelevant because the US has no real cultural or military contenders on our continent.

    The similarities between the European right and American right are:
    -Anti-communism
    -Pro-business
    -Western supremacism
    -Nationalism

    But there's lots of differences. The Libertarian wing of the Republican party, which despite being easily led into such obvious ploys as the Bush administration, does exist.
    And why does your tone suggest that you do not care about children?

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    Re: BNP Breaks Though To European Platform

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    US finally is left and Europe turns right
    So the Greens are now right wing? They were one of the biggest winners of the night.

    The conservative block (blue) gained a grand total of 2 seats.. hardly a huge shift to the right and that is only if the UK Conservatives rejoin that block instead of being listed as unaligned.

    The EP was already right leaning.

    Voting for the EP usually differs considerably from what people vote in national elections. Look at the last 2 UK elections. Labour lost heavily in the election before (local or EP) and yet it won the national election..

    If you look at the numbers instead of listening to the some times highly biased media, especially the fanatical anti European American media, then you see a whole other picture.

    The BBC has a nice graphic for this. Note the "no group" has many different types of parties and not all are right wing, but a large number are. The "right" are to the right of the graphics..

    BBC NEWS | European Election 2009 | EU Country Results

    The UK for example. The "right wing" had 39 seats in the 2004 election. This includes the Conservatives, UKIP and similar. In the 2009 elections they got 43 seats. A 4 seat gain out of 72 seats. Hardly a crushing election result considering the situation of the labour party and voter turn out.

    If we look at Europe wide. In 2004, the "right" had 369 seats out of 736 seats. After the 2009 election that number went to 385 seats. While it is an increase, it is hardly a blow out. We are talking about 16 seats where 4 of them are from the UK alone. So 12 seats across 26 countries have switch political sides.. hardly a huge shift.

    The only huge shift and it is infact a minor one, is the amount of new "green" seats. 9 in total.. going from 41 to 50, a statistically considerable jump.

    But if we look at the UK result again. The Conservatives got 4.397 million votes in 2004. In 2009 they got 4.198 million votes. The BNP got 808000 votes in 2004 and 943000 in 2009. In those same areas Labour in 2004 got 3.718 million votes and in 2009 they got 2.381 million.. so that pretty much explains everything in my opinion..
    PeteEU

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    Re: BNP Breaks Though To European Platform

    Quote Originally Posted by new coup for you View Post
    I think that some Neocons are equivalent to Le Pen or the BNP, but generally American conservatism is pretty different.
    Eh? Hell no. Le Pen and the BNP are anti Jewish... Neocons are very very pro Jewish for one. There are no economic similarities between the 2 (since Le Pen and BNP dont have any policies outside their racist agenda often). The only thing that could be similar would be their fear of the Islamic world... but that is about it.

    The whole "small government" line is pretty absent from most European hypernationalists.
    Because it is an American thing. Even the conservative parties in Europe dont use "small government" as their selling point because they know it wont fly.

    I'd include American neo-cons with European hypernationalists because (despite their rhetoric) I think it's pretty clear they have no actual commitment to smaller government.
    As I said, neo-cons and hypernationalists in Europe have very very little in common....

    European politics seem to hinge on nationalism versus internationalism (right versus left) but in the US that's not really a consideration.
    Well maybe but that is a tad simplistic and inaccurate view of things. For one most Europeans are more concerned about national issues than European issues. Hence the "nationalism" part can be applied to all countries because that is how politics goes. Politicians and voters in Spain or Denmark or wherever could care less about UK politics for example. As long as it does not impact them, then it dont register on the radar so to say. But it really depends on what country we are talking about.

    For example. In the UK it is the right that is EU sceptic. In Denmark it is the far left and the far right. It was the left that made Denmark vote no to Masstricht, not the right.

    Hardcore nationalist exist on both sides of the political spectrum and are always on the fringe. The "center" parties, which includes the conservatives know that isolating us from the rest of the world wont work and is harmful.

    We're the biggest and strongest country in our area of the world and we're more then capable of operating independently, so the leftist "we can only make it together" line, which might be very true for say, Belgium (or even Germany or France), doesn't hold any weight here.
    Disagree fully. There is a difference between being able to operate independently and actually doing so. Europe can operate independently as countries or combined, we have no problem with that. The difference is we dont want to. The US on the other hand has gone out of its way to prove to the world (under Bush at least) that the US can do whatever it wants, when ever it wants to whoever it wants.

    The Euro zone is the biggest economy on the planet. We are more than capable to operate independently in Europe, just as the US can. Difference is we dont throw our weight around just for kicks.

    Similarly the European far right argument that the surrounding countries are barbarians at the gate is irrelevant because the US has no real cultural or military contenders on our continent.
    Military no, culturally.. hardly. Considering that Spanish will become the first language of the US within 40 years then I would claim that the "cultural" aspect from south of the border is very alive. Which also shows in the comments, attitudes and so on, of the far right, at least from what we can read and hear from over here. It really reminds me of the far right fringe here that claim that X nationality are coming to take our jobs and women, and we must stop the illegals because they are bad, smell, rape and commit crime bla bla. Sure illegal immigration is bad, but by the sound of the far right anti-immigration people on both sides of the pond, their comments often hit out at everyone, legal or not, from the regions/countries/cultures/religions they target.

    The similarities between the European right and American right are:
    -Anti-communism
    -Pro-business
    -Western supremacism
    -Nationalism
    Sorry but Europe has moved on from the cold war. The "fear" of communism drives no one over here but the far right who fear everything. There is no threat of "communism" in Europe.. it would require that communist parties actually got elected to parliament, and with the exception of Italy, they dont.

    Pro-business sure.. but so are the left. It is the "left" that cut many taxes on business in Europe during the 1990s, it is the "left" that was behind much of the whole single market stuff in the 1980s and 1990s... because they were in power at the time in many countries, but they were supported by the right. And yes, single market = hugely pro business.

    As for Western supremacism... what do you mean by that?

    Nationalism. All parties are nationalist to a degree over here. Some are more than others. When it comes to nation politics, it is all nationalism.

    But there's lots of differences. The Libertarian wing of the Republican party, which despite being easily led into such obvious ploys as the Bush administration, does exist.
    There are huge differences not only in policy, but also attitudes to politics, money and the whole election process.
    PeteEU

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    Re: BNP Breaks Though To European Platform

    Quote Originally Posted by B L Zeebub View Post
    you forgot the record low turnout
    You mean the record number of people who decided to vote by staying at home?

    Why is it the losers always mention the magical "low turnout" when it's apparent that what a low turn out means is that they couldn't get enough people interested in what they were saying to haul their asses to polls and vote for them?

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    Re: BNP Breaks Though To European Platform

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    It said BNP got gains at the expense of labour.....why would labour voters support a far-right party?
    Maybe even simple laborers and ditch diggers are starting to figure out that socialism really sucks?

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    Re: BNP Breaks Though To European Platform

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    If we look at the Republican or Democratic party, you see one extreme to the next.
    Not in America. The differences between the halves of that party are small. Both embrace socialism to a large degree, and hence both belong in Europe or anywhere else the people want to be slaves, not men.

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