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Thread: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

  1. #71
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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Just because you don't like it? It's more complex, but the same principles hold. In fact, increased complexities are an argument for less intervention because government will be less able to understand all of it.
    No, because China was not the largest foreign holder of US Treasuries. Or, there was not massive government obligations. Or, Oil wasn't primarily produced by sovereign middle eastern countries. The reasons why it is a bad comparison/apples to oranges/off base, whatever, are numerous. But... The main reason why markets were so turbulent prior to the 1950's is due to access to accurate information and reports.

    If anything, the argument for free markets is technology orientated. I believe free(er) markets are imminent, but that is still years away.

    Sure, but fractional reserve is what got a lot of banks in trouble and that's why a lot are afraid to lower their reserve ratios (or is it raise, either way, you know what I mean). It's fraud and the free market would be clearing it up if not for government support of the corrupt system.
    No, everything would have crashed into oblivion.

    People will still buy. You act as if we'll go back to the stone ages.
    It was very close.

    It's the same human mentality. It's the way that people think. You have no reason to say that it is a bad comparison other than it is not convenient for you.
    Its not convenient for you to use faulty comparisons. Spending 30 years to purchase something is quite different than spending a grand on a new laptop. Come on....

    Just because governments won't let it happen doesn't mean it shouldn't.
    Here is why it shouldn't. Millions of people do not need to face unnecessary suffering.

    And besides, Hitler got to power from the collapse of the Weimar Republic. What doomed the Weimar Republic? Inflation from an interventionist government. Sound familiar?
    Wiemar inflation was primarily due to ungodly war reparations, and following 1929 it fell in line with most nations that were shaken by the depression.

    My parents have lost just about all of their retirement because it was all in BofA stock. So don't tell me that it hasn't hit home. However, there is a risk in stocks and if you fail you don't deserve to have someone back you up. If you don't want to fail then don't take the risk.
    All assets will go up in the long run, but the psychological toll it places on the populace not only non desirable, but unnecessary.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    My parents have lost just about all of their retirement because it was all in BofA stock. So don't tell me that it hasn't hit home. However, there is a risk in stocks and if you fail you don't deserve to have someone back you up. If you don't want to fail then don't take the risk.
    Man, you gotta tell your parents to diversify.

    Thats some face palm stuff there.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    People need to learn that there are risks. It's about time that they learn that failure can happen to them.
    Not everybody is a failure.

    Historical example: look at home values in the late 19th century. It's eerily similar to what we are going through now.


    You're the one talking about how all of these auto manufacturers are doing poorly so they need to be bailed out.
    Where have i said this? Link please

    Credit caused the problem. A lack of credit right now is a good thing. It will come back when people start saving more (it would in a free market).
    The economy is run on credit, nearly all business operations are funded on short term credit. Your lack of knowledge of how the real economy works dilutes your arguments for free markets. Credit is everything.

    Except that can't happen. The idea that all economic activity will just cease is insane. That has only happened with hyperinflation, and even then people will switch to barter. Economic activity continues.
    During the great depression, the country faced a massive deflation. Because the Fed at the time pulled money out of the economy, real recovery took nearly two decades. Now there is a massive deflation of assets that use financing (credit) to purchase and produce. Tightening of credit will cause prices to fall even further (just like the GD). There is no reason for this to happen.

    But credit without the real backing is a bubble. It's not sustainable and it shoudln't be pursued because of the inevitable crash.
    And this leads to inflation right BTW, a bubble is extreme overvaluation in which the exit from the market is unattainable for the majority of investors.


    People are being punished for taking out bad loans. Banks don't want to lend as much. Only the most worthwhile will get money and others will save more. This correction will lead to actual production from our economy, steering us away from a phony finance economy.
    My parents did not make or take bad loans, and can pay their debts just fine. Why should they have to feel the brunt of this pain: because of the stupidity of a few, and the fraud of even fewer? Get your head out of the clouds and take a peek at reality.
    Last edited by Kushinator; 06-10-09 at 03:32 PM.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Man, you gotta tell your parents to diversify.

    Thats some face palm stuff there.
    They're blue chips, they're supposed to be secure. At least, that's what they led everyone to believe.

    At least this is teaching everyone that there are no sure things in life.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    No, because China was not the largest foreign holder of US Treasuries. Or, there was not massive government obligations. Or, Oil wasn't primarily produced by sovereign middle eastern countries. The reasons why it is a bad comparison/apples to oranges/off base, whatever, are numerous. But... The main reason why markets were so turbulent prior to the 1950's is due to access to accurate information and reports.

    If anything, the argument for free markets is technology orientated. I believe free(er) markets are imminent, but that is still years away.



    No, everything would have crashed into oblivion.



    It was very close.



    Its not convenient for you to use faulty comparisons. Spending 30 years to purchase something is quite different than spending a grand on a new laptop. Come on....



    Here is why it shouldn't. Millions of people do not need to face unnecessary suffering.



    Wiemar inflation was primarily due to ungodly war reparations, and following 1929 it fell in line with most nations that were shaken by the depression.



    All assets will go up in the long run, but the psychological toll it places on the populace not only non desirable, but unnecessary.
    I'm not responding to any of this. These are all just claims without any theoretical or statistical reasoning.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Not everybody is a failure.
    But they shouldn't expect to be bailed out if they pick a loser.

    Late 19th century home prices: look it up.

    Where have i said this? Link please
    You allude to it:

    Even Toyota is reporting record losses (for the first time in their history). It sounds nice in theory, but in practice mass liquidations will create utter chaos.
    The only way to avoid this "chaos" is with bailouts.

    The economy is run on credit, nearly all business operations are funded on short term credit. Your lack of knowledge of how the real economy works dilutes your arguments for free markets. Credit is everything.
    Credit is not gone, just hard to come by, as it should be during a correction.

    During the great depression, the country faced a massive deflation. Because the Fed at the time pulled money out of the economy, real recovery took nearly two decades. Now there is a massive deflation of assets that use financing (credit) to purchase and produce. Tightening of credit will cause prices to fall even further (just like the GD). There is no reason for this to happen.
    Do you have any idea how much inflation there was in the 20's that led to the crash, or do I need to pull out America's Great Depression?

    And this leads to inflation right BTW, a bubble is extreme overvaluation in which the exit from the market is unattainable for the majority of investors.
    And malinvestment. Malinvestment causes the bubble.

    My parents did not make or take bad loans, and can pay their debts just fine. Why should they have to feel the brunt of this pain: because of the stupidity of a few, and the fraud of even fewer? Get your head out of the clouds and take a peek at reality.
    If they had their money in stocks then they took a risk. They should not be spared no matter how you portray it. There is a risk in stocks and they should have realized that.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    I think your missing what we both are saying.

    Under our current economic situation, state capitalism, the government must do these things otherwise it ends in a giant cluster ****.

    That does not mean that we want it that way. I'm not sure of Goldenboys specific wants as far as the economy goes so I can't answer it for him.

    Free market capitalism and state capitalism are two totally different animals.

    We live in a state capitalist system.
    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    ^^^^That's nothing more than fascism, it's not capitalism.
    Quote Originally Posted by ????????????
    I don't think that word "fascism" means what you think it does.
    All you have to do is to make up a label. As soon as you do you choke any thought tending to be born. The label serves as a condom to render a conversation to be non-fruitful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Ideology and practicality do not always go hand in hand. I have witnessed in one year, several close friends and family members lose 50% plus in their investment/retirement accounts as well as steep declines in the values on their homes. Most forum vets will vouch that before Oct 2008, i was the most bull headed free markets guy there was. That period taught me something; the system is built to require government intervention. As HG and others stated, the majority of all entrepreneurship, commerce, and industry require state intervention to function on the long and short run.

    Many free market pundits (including myself) were predicting hyper inflation back in late 2007, as a result of the sub prime mess. The exact opposite came true; asset values tumbled. And here you are prescribing policy that wreaks of a deflationary spiral.

    If you are a contrarian investor, then free market ideology will most likely serve you well. If you are a college professor, market orientated economics/finance can help you provide some interesting course material. But if you are an average American, who has children and a long list of future liabilities; free markets equate to a vast array of uncertainty. Mass uncertainty will cause wide spread panic. Telling people to buy gold and stock pile food and ammunition has been a favorite for many so called libertarians.

    I on the other hand do not desire panic, and do not want to stock pile for economic collapse. I want to make money, and live a happy life. That is the type of libertarian i am. The fear boat left port back in October....


    But if you are an average American state intervention will cause wide spread panic. It does cause wide spread panic. It HAS caused wide spread panic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    I have witnessed in one year, several close friends and family members lose 50% plus in their investment/retirement accounts as well as steep declines in the values on their homes.
    So what is bad about it? Should I be sorry about them? I am sorry, but I am not sorry at all. Moreover I am a kind of angry that they want to stop the decline at my expenses. That is simply a robbery. You can label it state capitalism, I label it socialism, he labels it fascism. Whatever label you choose, it is a robbery, it is infringement on my freedoms, it is immoral and unfair on the first place, - whatever are your learned explanations. Their investment/retirement accounts and the values on their homes are not the main value of my life. My freedom and liberty are. If it was all about their investment/retirement accounts and the values on their homes I wouldn’t have to immigrate to the US and to spend years of my life to become an American citizen, - I could spent these years making money. You and other Obamaists have a psychology of robbers and you see your happiness in their investment/retirement accounts and the values on their homes no matter what; but this country was designed so that somebody can pursue other happiness rather than maintaining and increasing their investment/retirement accounts and the values on their homes, - either individually or by family or by society/socialism, - it is called freedom of pursuit of happiness. It is my natural right you are infringing upon. Please submit some justification for the anti Constitutional anti-American actions of Obamaists, feed my anger.

    Spending years on breaking the red tape of immigration I have not learned anything about economy and stock market. But each time when I hear educated and experienced Obamaists, like you or don1, my hair goes up. I ask don1 simple questions and he avoids giving any answers. Can you answer simple questions? I think I already asked you once and never heard from you again.

    Let me ask you a few more. In one year, several close friends and family members of yours lost 50% plus in their investment/retirement accounts and saw steep declines in the values on their homes. I did loose 50% of my retirement account and 30% of value of my house. Question #3 - What bad, immoral or unfair is about it? And in order to clarify the question even more: Question #1 – What is money? Question # 2 - What do banks do?
    There are more questions, all very simple, but let me see if you can handle these ones.

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by justone View Post

    Let me ask you a few more. In one year, several close friends and family members of yours lost 50% plus in their investment/retirement accounts and saw steep declines in the values on their homes. I did loose 50% of my retirement account and 30% of value of my house. Question #3 - What bad, immoral or unfair is about it? And in order to clarify the question even more: Question #1 – What is money? Question # 2 - What do banks do?
    There are more questions, all very simple, but let me see if you can handle these ones.
    Ill reply in greater detail to your entire post tomorrow morning.

    1. Money is a medium of exchange, in which the buyer and the seller know and agree on the value. Keeping it simple: A residential painter preforms a trade that people have demand for. Without a medium of exchange (money), the painter will have to find those who provide the everyday services and products they demand to live their life, i.e. food, clothing, credit, shelter in exchange for their services. Money allows people to focus on the activities that they are most productive, receive specific compensation, and then purchase the other aspects of life in which they are less efficient in providing for themselves.

    2. Banks are just like any other business. Their primary goal is to make the most profit possible in the short run as well as the long run. When you deposit money into your checking account (transactional account), your bank has the ability to make loans based on the money "sitting" in your specific account. Not only your account, but every transactional account held in that specific institution. It is a far more complicated than this explanation, but banks provide the financing ability for production and services to be produced and sold. Without the credit provided by financial institutions, business as we know it would nearly cease to exist.

    For more information, see these references:

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking]Fractional-reserve banking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency]Currency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    And my personal favorite, which is probably 20 years or more away from becoming a true possibility: [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_banking]Free banking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Trust me, i am as "free market" as there is. But our current economic situation was not created from free markets, and cannot be restored by "free market" orientated remedies without great depression like consequences.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Trust me, i am as "free market" as there is.
    I'm still waiting for one capitalist idea to come from you.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    People are being punished for taking out bad loans.
    No, they're not.

    Is anyone that took a loan out going to jail because they can't repay it?

    Not that I've heard.

    But if they can't pay for the property they took the loan out for, they're being told to vacate it and turn it over to the owner. That's not punishment, that's life.

    The people being punished are those people who wish to buy property but can't because the government is artificially subsidizing high housing prices by unconstitutionally aiding those people who took out loans they couldn't repay.

    Other people who are being punished are the taxpayers who pay off their mortgages on time and who are being ordered to pay off this other guy's mortgage, too, because he can't afford his.


    People don't take out "bad loans", the loans become naughty when the people who take them home don't feed them on schedule. It's the borrower's fault.
    Last edited by Scarecrow Akhbar; 06-10-09 at 08:41 PM.

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