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Thread: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    But history does not show that.
    Care to provide a frame of reference?

    No libertarian would fall for that deflationary spiral tripe. Inflation is still coming. It's an increase in the money supply, which we have, now we just need a fall in confidence. Deflation isn't all that bad anyway.
    Inflation is, and always was, a monetary phenomenon. Until banks begin lending their excess reserves in hordes, inflation is not a short term worry. Falling stock prices, real estate prices, and wages is good

    If deflationary spiral were true, then people would never buy computers. It's the same concept. Computers become obsolete in 2 years, and technology is always rapidly improving. Yet people bite the bullet and buy computers. Same with deflation.
    The % of computer purchases that are obtained with credit versus the % of real estate purchases bought with credit are most likely inverses. You're talking peanuts, im talking elephants.

    And government intervention is unstable, a waste of resources, and decreases our productive capabilities. Increasing production helps the poor the most.
    When did i say it was stable (strawman)?

    I was just waiting for you to respond, but you still don't sound like any libertarian.
    And you sound like a new libertarian.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    That doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.
    Do you own real estate? If so, why do desire for the value of your property to go down? That is what massive defaults create.

    So we will have increased savings and only the best companies will be able to produce. Sounds good to me.
    Even Toyota is reporting record losses (for the first time in their history). It sounds nice in theory, but in practice mass liquidations will create utter chaos.

    Maybe if you fall for a Keynesian fallacy. It's not all about credit. We've had too much credit and that is what has caused our problems.
    Stable credit markets allow for production to continue. Believe it or not, there are people who are able to obtain credit and make their payments. Credit should not be offered to everyone, but this is another subject in itself.

    If everyone is buying and no one is saving then we will never invest in the factors of production. That's a terrible idea.
    When i buy a new 900 CFM air compressor, that is considered a business investment. When someone hires me to apply a protective coating on their cement plant, that is a business investment. The situation is far more complex than you are giving it credit (pun intended) My revenue is down more than 1/2 since last July when i officially incorporated.

    Remember, people cannot save if they do not have an income stream. People are not buying as much because their future income expectations are in jeopardy. Your solution is the exact opposite needed. Why punish everyone for the mistakes of a few?
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Care to provide a frame of reference?
    Reference the US before the Depression. Even better go back to before Roosevelt.

    Inflation is, and always was, a monetary phenomenon. Until banks begin lending their excess reserves in hordes, inflation is not a short term worry. Falling stock prices, real estate prices, and wages is good
    You think banks have an excess? I can assure you they don't. And we need falling prices because all prices will not fall at the same rate. We will get prices that are closer to market prices. A correction.

    The % of computer purchases that are obtained with credit versus the % of real estate purchases bought with credit are most likely inverses. You're talking peanuts, im talking elephants.
    It's the exact same mentality.

    When did i say it was stable (strawman)?
    Why would you advocate for something that isn't stable?

    And you sound like a new libertarian.
    You sound a lot more like a Keynesian.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Do you own real estate? If so, why do desire for the value of your property to go down? That is what massive defaults create.
    Everyone's property values will fall. What's the problem? Besides, you shouldn't have a risk that you take be guaranteed. You buy property knowing that the value may fall. If you don't want to take that risk, then don't buy the property.

    Even Toyota is reporting record losses (for the first time in their history). It sounds nice in theory, but in practice mass liquidations will create utter chaos.
    So if we didn't bail out auto companies we would have no new cars in the world? Because that's basically what you're going for.

    Stable credit markets allow for production to continue. Believe it or not, there are people who are able to obtain credit and make their payments. Credit should not be offered to everyone, but this is another subject in itself.
    You're not really answering my argument here.

    When i buy a new 900 CFM air compressor, that is considered a business investment. When someone hires me to apply a protective coating on their cement plant, that is a business investment. The situation is far more complex than you are giving it credit (pun intended) My revenue is down more than 1/2 since last July when i officially incorporated.

    Remember, people cannot save if they do not have an income stream. People are not buying as much because their future income expectations are in jeopardy. Your solution is the exact opposite needed. Why punish everyone for the mistakes of a few?
    People are saving more because they are afraid of losing their incomes. This would lower interest rates in a market. However, we're trying to inflate a popped bubble with these artificially low interest rates.

    It's not as if the money does nothing when it is saved.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219
    Inflation is, and always was, a monetary phenomenon. Until banks begin lending their excess reserves in hordes, inflation is not a short term worry.
    That depends on what you mean by "short term". I see no reason why this will not start circulating within a few months or a year as banks' assets start thawing.

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Reference the US before the Depression. Even better go back to before Roosevelt.
    So those were globally diverse economies? Very bad comparison....

    You think banks have an excess? I can assure you they don't.
    I know, fractional reserve banking. But really; the banks have unparalleled lending capacity.


    And we need falling prices because all prices will not fall at the same rate. We will get prices that are closer to market prices. A correction.
    A panic induced contraction of economic activity is not your standard "correction". Last fall was only a shadow of what fear can produce.

    It's the exact same mentality.
    No, it is a bad comparison.

    Why would you advocate for something that isn't stable?
    Listen... Mass liquidation is not an option. They will never let it get like that again, no matter how bad you want it. No government that is elected will allow it, period! Yeah, a complete system would be ideologically good, but in reality, that is how Hitlers rise to power.

    You sound a lot more like a Keynesian.
    You watch your parents lose half of their retirement, and reality sets in. Saying "i told you so" just isn't an option, especially when you see the changes in attitude, loss of sleep, and anxiety; while i have profited (i was buying puts on everything in early August) from their loss.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    That depends on what you mean by "short term". I see no reason why this will not start circulating within a few months or a year as banks' assets start thawing.
    And hopefully they can pull it out of the system without shocking the markets.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Everyone's property values will fall. What's the problem? Besides, you shouldn't have a risk that you take be guaranteed. You buy property knowing that the value may fall. If you don't want to take that risk, then don't buy the property.
    Tell me, when have assets fallen so sharply before in history? Mass foreclosures are a bad thing. But if a guy/gal bought a $300k house under the premise that they were going to make $75k/year; then not only does their property value fall to $200k, but they have lost their job as well: it is a ****ed situation no matter how you stack it. This is the reality for many Americans.

    So if we didn't bail out auto companies we would have no new cars in the world? Because that's basically what you're going for.
    Dude, you have to chill out with the strawman business. The money given to GM and Chrysler could have gone to help build innovative new age automotive companies. Hybrid Vehicle Manufacturing and Services Company - Bright Automotive

    You're not really answering my argument here.
    You have none. You stated it is not about credit, when the markets have shown otherwise.

    People are saving more because they are afraid of losing their incomes.This would lower interest rates in a market.
    Your synthesizing two ideas without much reasoning behind it. People are afraid of losing their incomes because jobs are being lost. Jobs are being lost because demand for goods and services has dropped off considerably.

    When money is either restricted (not available) or is being remove from transactional accounts, this lowers the banks ability to make loans. LIBOR went off the charts in October for this very reason, people were pulling their money from banks, causing a freeze in credit availability. Saving can be considered paying off debt, which has been the "in thing" as of late. The amount of money being deposited into savings accounts is nowhere near the amount being removed from transactional (checking) accounts. Without quantitative easing from the Fed, assets would have continued to spiral downward.

    However, we're trying to inflate a popped bubble with these artificially low interest rates.
    No, we are trying to revive a $3 trillion credit market, which the Fed is propping up with a little more than 1/3 the previous available liquidity. Credit is the life blood to all developed economies.

    It's not as if the money does nothing when it is saved.
    Saving is good, so is living within our means. But the system will not go into punish mode.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    So those were globally diverse economies? Very bad comparison....
    Just because you don't like it? It's more complex, but the same principles hold. In fact, increased complexities are an argument for less intervention because government will be less able to understand all of it.

    I know, fractional reserve banking. But really; the banks have unparalleled lending capacity.
    Sure, but fractional reserve is what got a lot of banks in trouble and that's why a lot are afraid to lower their reserve ratios (or is it raise, either way, you know what I mean). It's fraud and the free market would be clearing it up if not for government support of the corrupt system.

    A panic induced contraction of economic activity is not your standard "correction". Last fall was only a shadow of what fear can produce.
    People will still buy. You act as if we'll go back to the stone ages.

    No, it is a bad comparison.
    It's the same human mentality. It's the way that people think. You have no reason to say that it is a bad comparison other than it is not convenient for you.

    Listen... Mass liquidation is not an option. They will never let it get like that again, no matter how bad you want it. No government that is elected will allow it, period! Yeah, a complete system would be ideologically good, but in reality, that is how Hitlers rise to power.
    Just because governments won't let it happen doesn't mean it shouldn't. And besides, Hitler got to power from the collapse of the Weimar Republic. What doomed the Weimar Republic? Inflation from an interventionist government. Sound familiar?

    You watch your parents lose half of their retirement, and reality sets in. Saying "i told you so" just isn't an option, especially when you see the changes in attitude, loss of sleep, and anxiety; while i have profited (i was buying puts on everything in early August) from their loss.
    My parents have lost just about all of their retirement because it was all in BofA stock. So don't tell me that it hasn't hit home. However, there is a risk in stocks and if you fail you don't deserve to have someone back you up. If you don't want to fail then don't take the risk.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Tell me, when have assets fallen so sharply before in history? Mass foreclosures are a bad thing. But if a guy/gal bought a $300k house under the premise that they were going to make $75k/year; then not only does their property value fall to $200k, but they have lost their job as well: it is a ****ed situation no matter how you stack it. This is the reality for many Americans.
    People need to learn that there are risks. It's about time that they learn that failure can happen to them.

    Historical example: look at home values in the late 19th century. It's eerily similar to what we are going through now.

    Dude, you have to chill out with the strawman business. The money given to GM and Chrysler could have gone to help build innovative new age automotive companies. Hybrid Vehicle Manufacturing and Services Company - Bright Automotive
    You're the one talking about how all of these auto manufacturers are doing poorly so they need to be bailed out. Well why? We will get new auto manufacturers if these ones go out of business. More than likely they will be better run too. They would also be more sensitive to our demands unlike the current companies.

    You have none. You stated it is not about credit, when the markets have shown otherwise.
    Credit caused the problem. A lack of credit right now is a good thing. It will come back when people start saving more (it would in a free market).

    Your synthesizing two ideas without much reasoning behind it. People are afraid of losing their incomes because jobs are being lost. Jobs are being lost because demand for goods and services has dropped off considerably.

    When money is either restricted (not available) or is being remove from transactional accounts, this lowers the banks ability to make loans. LIBOR went off the charts in October for this very reason, people were pulling their money from banks, causing a freeze in credit availability. Saving can be considered paying off debt, which has been the "in thing" as of late. The amount of money being deposited into savings accounts is nowhere near the amount being removed from transactional (checking) accounts. Without quantitative easing from the Fed, assets would have continued to spiral downward.
    Except that can't happen. The idea that all economic activity will just cease is insane. That has only happened with hyperinflation, and even then people will switch to barter. Economic activity continues.

    No, we are trying to revive a $3 trillion credit market, which the Fed is propping up with a little more than 1/3 the previous available liquidity. Credit is the life blood to all developed economies.
    But credit without the real backing is a bubble. It's not sustainable and it shoudln't be pursued because of the inevitable crash.

    Saving is good, so is living within our means. But the system will not go into punish mode.
    People are being punished for taking out bad loans. Banks don't want to lend as much. Only the most worthwhile will get money and others will save more. This correction will lead to actual production from our economy, steering us away from a phony finance economy.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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