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Thread: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Default sounds like a better option to me than inflation.
    Default is a sign of desperation.


    Inflation affects everyone, default affects those people who made bad loans and the people who took out the bad loans.
    Inflation will increase the dollar denominated value of assets, deflation will do the opposite. Most big ticket items, or high end capital goods are financed, therefore carry a fixed cost. Deflation (ongoing default) will actually starve the buying power out of everyone who has contractually obligated debt.


    You could argue that this would freeze up capital, but why shouldn't it be hard to get?
    No, it would cause prices to fall, and then freeze up credit. And its all about credit.

    This way only those most trustworthy would get the capital and we invest in those strongest areas of the economy.
    No.... What you are describing will cause another liquidity trap. If people are afraid prices are going to continue to fall, purchases through capital or credit will diminish; even if consumers/investors have the ability to do so.
    Last edited by Kushinator; 06-09-09 at 04:51 PM.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    ^^You are not a libertarian. Seriously. You're advocating huge government interventionism. I'll answer your claims, but how do you reconcile what you just said and calling yoursle a libertarian?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #53
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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    ^^You are not a libertarian. Seriously. You're advocating huge government interventionism. I'll answer your claims, but how do you reconcile what you just said and calling yoursle a libertarian?
    I think your missing what we both are saying.

    Under our current economic situation, state capitalism, the government must do these things otherwise it ends in a giant cluster ****.

    That does not mean that we want it that way. I'm not sure of Goldenboys specific wants as far as the economy goes so I can't answer it for him.

    Free market capitalism and state capitalism are two totally different animals.

    We live in a state capitalist system.

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism]State capitalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    ^^That's nothing more than fascism, it's not capitalism.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    ^^That's nothing more than fascism, it's not capitalism.
    I don't think that word "fascism" means what you think it does.

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    ^^You are not a libertarian. Seriously. You're advocating huge government interventionism. I'll answer your claims, but how do you reconcile what you just said and calling yoursle a libertarian?
    Ideology and practicality do not always go hand in hand. I have witnessed in one year, several close friends and family members lose 50% plus in their investment/retirement accounts as well as steep declines in the values on their homes. Most forum vets will vouch that before Oct 2008, i was the most bull headed free markets guy there was. That period taught me something; the system is built to require government intervention. As HG and others stated, the majority of all entrepreneurship, commerce, and industry require state intervention to function on the long and short run.

    Many free market pundits (including myself) were predicting hyper inflation back in late 2007, as a result of the sub prime mess. The exact opposite came true; asset values tumbled. And here you are prescribing policy that wreaks of a deflationary spiral.

    If you are a contrarian investor, then free market ideology will most likely serve you well. If you are a college professor, market orientated economics/finance can help you provide some interesting course material. But if you are an average American, who has children and a long list of future liabilities; free markets equate to a vast array of uncertainty. Mass uncertainty will cause wide spread panic. Telling people to buy gold and stock pile food and ammunition has been a favorite for many so called libertarians.

    I on the other hand do not desire panic, and do not want to stock pile for economic collapse. I want to make money, and live a happy life. That is the type of libertarian i am. The fear boat left port back in October....

    You said you would respond to my initial reply. I am waiting....
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    ^^That's nothing more than fascism, it's not capitalism.
    Fascism is corporate capitalism.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I don't think that word "fascism" means what you think it does.
    It means exactly what I think it does when you are talking about the economic aspect of it.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Ideology and practicality do not always go hand in hand. I have witnessed in one year, several close friends and family members lose 50% plus in their investment/retirement accounts as well as steep declines in the values on their homes. Most forum vets will vouch that before Oct 2008, i was the most bull headed free markets guy there was. That period taught me something; the system is built to require government intervention. As HG and others stated, the majority of all entrepreneurship, commerce, and industry require state intervention to function on the long and short run.
    But history does not show that.

    Many free market pundits (including myself) were predicting hyper inflation back in late 2007, as a result of the sub prime mess. The exact opposite came true; asset values tumbled. And here you are prescribing policy that wreaks of a deflationary spiral.
    No libertarian would fall for that deflationary spiral tripe. Inflation is still coming. It's an increase in the money supply, which we have, now we just need a fall in confidence. Deflation isn't all that bad anyway.

    If deflationary spiral were true, then people would never buy computers. It's the same concept. Computers become obsolete in 2 years, and technology is always rapidly improving. Yet people bite the bullet and buy computers. Same with deflation.

    If you are a contrarian investor, then free market ideology will most likely serve you well. If you are a college professor, market orientated economics/finance can help you provide some interesting course material. But if you are an average American, who has children and a long list of future liabilities; free markets equate to a vast array of uncertainty. Mass uncertainty will cause wide spread panic. Telling people to buy gold and stock pile food and ammunition has been a favorite for many so called libertarians.
    And government intervention is unstable, a waste of resources, and decreases our productive capabilities. Increasing production helps the poor the most.

    I on the other hand do not desire panic, and do not want to stock pile for economic collapse. I want to make money, and live a happy life. That is the type of libertarian i am. The fear boat left port back in October....

    You said you would respond to my initial reply. I am waiting....
    I was just waiting for you to respond, but you still don't sound like any libertarian.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Obama promises more than 600,000 stimulus jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Default is a sign of desperation.
    That doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen.

    Inflation will increase the dollar denominated value of assets, deflation will do the opposite. Most big ticket items, or high end capital goods are financed, therefore carry a fixed cost. Deflation (ongoing default) will actually starve the buying power out of everyone who has contractually obligated debt.
    So we will have increased savings and only the best companies will be able to produce. Sounds good to me.

    No, it would cause prices to fall, and then freeze up credit. And its all about credit.
    Maybe if you fall for a Keynesian fallacy. It's not all about credit. We've had too much credit and that is what has caused our problems.

    No.... What you are describing will cause another liquidity trap. If people are afraid prices are going to continue to fall, purchases through capital or credit will diminish; even if consumers/investors have the ability to do so.
    If everyone is buying and no one is saving then we will never invest in the factors of production. That's a terrible idea.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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