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Thread: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And when you do that you exclude those other countries from the economic opportunity to accumulate capital and grow as we have. If they don't have the foreign investment, the process will be much longer and the people will languish in comparison to our standard of living.
    Every anguishing laborer in the world is not the U.S.'s problem. We need to help our economy before we can afford to help others. I am not saying we shouldn't do anything for said laborer, but we cannot afford to wreck our economy just because Bob from PoorNation will have to wait longer for better working conditions. By buying products made in those conditions we are encouraging the practice. Advocating for workers rights is for the UN and State Department not our economy. That country needs to develop its own economy internally, just like we have to rebuild ours internally before we can be ready to be a positive influence on the world economy. AKA we need to work our interest rates back up to prevent inflation, raise tariffs and lower taxes to encourage industry, work to develop new industries and educate a well-trained workforce, and try to reduce the power of unions to prevent companies from doing what they need to do, within reason, to balance their budget.
    “Justitia suum cuique distribuit” Justice renders to every one his due

    - Cicero

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And when you do that you exclude those other countries from the economic opportunity to accumulate capital and grow as we have. If they don't have the foreign investment, the process will be much longer and the people will languish in comparison to our standard of living.
    In the agricultural economies of the southern colonies, tariffs were a nightmare. But in the northern front, the tariffs allowed an industrial powerhouse to emerge. Due to the fact that the south was slave dependent, the lack of efficiency (the to opportunity costs of a slave economy) deemed the various southern industries extremely price sensitive. The tariffs directly reduced British trade outflows into the US, there by reducing their ability to purchase southern raw materials.

    You still have yet to show where capitalism existed and was not propped up by government.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by wbreese91 View Post
    Every anguishing laborer in the world is not the U.S.'s problem. We need to help our economy before we can afford to help others. I am not saying we shouldn't do anything for said laborer, but we cannot afford to wreck our economy just because Bob from PoorNation will have to wait longer for better working conditions. By buying products made in those conditions we are encouraging the practice. Advocating for workers rights is for the UN and State Department not our economy. That country needs to develop its own economy internally, just like we have to rebuild ours internally before we can be ready to be a positive influence on the world economy. AKA we need to work our interest rates back up to prevent inflation, raise tariffs and lower taxes to encourage industry, work to develop new industries and educate a well-trained workforce, and try to reduce the power of unions to prevent companies from doing what they need to do, within reason, to balance their budget.
    How does using outside labor wreck our economy?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    In the agricultural economies of the southern colonies, tariffs were a nightmare. But in the northern front, the tariffs allowed an industrial powerhouse to emerge. Due to the fact that the south was slave dependent, the lack of efficiency (the to opportunity costs of a slave economy) deemed the various southern industries extremely price sensitive. The tariffs directly reduced British trade outflows into the US, there by reducing their ability to purchase southern raw materials.
    So what would have happened without those tariffs? We would have bought cheaper European products and we would have found industries where we are better than Europe.

    You have to remember too that there is a natural tariff and that is the cost of transportation.

    You still have yet to show where capitalism existed and was not propped up by government.
    No I don't. The lack of an example nor my unwillingness to find one does not prove that I am wrong.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    How does using outside labor wreck our economy?
    This is how. In diagram form.

    Without Tariff
    U.S. Company: Production Cost+Transportation+Wages+Healthcare+Taxes
    Foriegn Company:Production Cost+Transportation+Wages

    Thus it is cheaper to produce in foreign countries. Then our exports are overtaken by imports. At this point, or unemployment rises, which makes people default on their loans, which makes the FED lower interest rates, which leads to inflation..........

    With Tariff
    U.S. Company: Production Cost+Transportation+Wages+Healthcare+Taxes
    Foriegn Company:Production Cost+Transportation+Wages+equalizing tariff

    Thus it is cheaper to produce in the U.S. which means more jobs, which means people can pay their loans more easily, which means the FED can raise interest rates, which fights inflation and boost the value of the U.S. dollar.
    “Justitia suum cuique distribuit” Justice renders to every one his due

    - Cicero

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    Libertarian does not automatically = laissez faire. That is a fringe segment.
    No. Libertarian does automatically mean laissez-faire.

    Libertarian means the acceptance of no outside coercion on the invidual and his choices.

    Laissez-faire means no outside coercion on businesses.

    They're congruent.

    Being anti-laissez-faire means being supportive of outside interference in a businessman's choices, which means being supportive of coercion on the indvidual, which means being something that isn't libertarian.

    So, if you support government interference in business, you're not a libertarian.

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by wbreese91 View Post
    Yes, but those cheaper goods have been made by laborers who haven't been paid enough to feed their family, in factories with no safety requirements not to mention air conditioning. Duh, they're cheaper. That is why companies are moving over there. If we had tariffs that made goods less expensive to produce and sell here, companies would not be moving overseas to produce those goods and the better cheaper goods would be produced here. Let's not pretend that there are no disadvantages to those cheaper goods.
    There aren't any disadvantages to the buyer of those goods, so what's the problem?

    Why are there no tuna canneries in the states? Because goonions forced the wages so high it wasn't profitable to can fish in the US. Instead, Nancy Pelosi was paid to write an exception to the federal minimum wage laws so Starkist could continue to pay Guamanians local wages to can fish.

    Why are clothes almost all imported? Because it's not profitable to pay a woman $15 an hour to sew zippers on in Atlanta, when it can be done for two bucks a day in Bangladesh.

    The people buying the clothes and the tuna make out just fine in the US, they have more money in their pockets to spend on other goods, and overall the economy is improved.

    Really sucks for someone who only knows how to sew zippers, though. But....since the flaming liberal marxist maxim is "greatest good for greatest number", even the flaming lib marxists like The Messiah can't credibly argue that tariffs help people.

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    I don't think that a variety of people here realize for most intensive purposes that welfare is nothing more than a fee we pay to poor people to stop them from robbing us and burglarizing our houses.
    I'll keep my money and take my chances.

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by wbreese91 View Post
    Without Tariff
    U.S. Company: Production Cost+Transportation+Wages+Healthcare+Taxes
    Foriegn Company:Production Cost+Transportation+Wages

    Thus it is cheaper to produce in foreign countries. Then our exports are overtaken by imports. At this point, or unemployment rises, which makes people default on their loans, which makes the FED lower interest rates, which leads to inflation..........
    I contest the claim that with increased foreign involvement that we will lose jobs. That's not how it works. That does not follow from Say's Law: production creates its own demand.

    With Tariff
    U.S. Company: Production Cost+Transportation+Wages+Healthcare+Taxes
    Foriegn Company:Production Cost+Transportation+Wages+equalizing tariff

    Thus it is cheaper to produce in the U.S. which means more jobs, which means people can pay their loans more easily, which means the FED can raise interest rates, which fights inflation and boost the value of the U.S. dollar.
    But you ignore that the costs necessarily go up. Cheaper labor means we have to spend more. This also means that loans are harder to pay back and that we save less.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Advisor wbreese91's Avatar
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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    I contest the claim that with increased foreign involvement that we will lose jobs. That's not how it works. That does not follow from Say's Law: production creates its own demand.
    Really, because that is what is happening right now.

    But you ignore that the costs necessarily go up. Cheaper labor means we have to spend more. This also means that loans are harder to pay back and that we save less.
    No cheaper labor equals less cost for the producer, which means the consumer pays less. That was my entire point.
    “Justitia suum cuique distribuit” Justice renders to every one his due

    - Cicero

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