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Thread: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

  1. #161
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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    I see. Pay people to obey the law because the other option is "too hard".
    With attitudes like this as prevelant as they are, its no wonder that our society is on a fast downhill slide.
    So you'd be okay with jailing even more numbers of people and paying more taxation, significently more than you would in welfare transfer payments?

    Interesting, you're against big government welfare, but big government prisons are okay.

    You say that as if it doesnt exit now. Walk thru a large city much?
    Rational people here have often stated that cutting welfare off will result in large riots. And given mugging rates across the country, it actually is pretty safe aside from a few select cities and areas. Throw in masses of starving people and you're going to get mugged a hell of a lot more.

    You say that as if it doesnt exist now. Walk thru a large city much?
    I wasn't aware that the average citizen had multiple firearms and that residential theft was only prevented by firearms. Care to show me evidence of this?

    Hmm. False dichotomy, anyone?
    Care to look at 1990s Somalia? Lots of starving, poor people = lots of crime.

    As -I- am doing here?
    Pretty much. Tell me, do you really think nothing will change if welfare dries up entirely? That the millions on welfare will not change their behaviors? Care to tell me, how does crime and poverty work together? During the recession of the 70s and 80s, what was the crime rate compared to the booms of the 90s and 2000s? You know, like economic data analysis?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  2. #162
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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    This is so patently false, I don't know where to begin.
    If it was so false, why did you agree that accidents happen? And accidents happen in those who deliberately bought guns.

    Simply put, it is extremely rare to have an gun-related accident. We have about a billion guns in Texas, and you almost never hear of a child accidentally shooting themself or someone else.
    Hearing is irrelevant, just because you did not hear about it does not mean it did not occur. While firearm accidents are relatively low, remember that generally people who have the accidents deliberately purchased the weapon. Now, imagine those who did not WANT to have a firearm, but got one under celticlord's plan now own firearms. But without the expertise, training and safety understanding. Accidents among those who deliberately bought firearms are unacceptably high. Toss in inexperience and ignorance with firearms and tell me, do you think accidents rates are going to go up or going to go down? Gun owners themselves do stupid stuff with their firearms. Cops for crying out loud get their firearms stolen.

    Top cop's gun stolen?

    THE POLICE CHIEF FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Of all people who should understand firearms best practices....

    When people get shot, it's almost entirely from guns purchased illegally, and it's almost always drug or gang related.
    Almost entirely? Tell me, is 10~15% almost nothing?
    frontline: hot guns: "How Criminals Get Guns" | PBS

    While you are correct that most of the illegals are from illegal purchases, the stolen do account for a sizable portion. Giving handguns to everyone, the most stolen firearm, will invariably lead to even more stolen firearms used in crime.

    Inexperience/ignorance/lack of training + firearms = Bad Outcomes

    I suspect both you and Goobieman agree with that.

    Again, my problem isn't with the firearm. It's with the idiot behind the weapon.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    So you'd be okay with jailing even more numbers of people and paying more taxation, significently more than you would in welfare transfer payments?
    This question does not even matter. We have to decide whether or not it is good that we should give our money to those who are trying to rob us. Which man do you see as doing the better action, the one who gives his money, or the one who refuses to be abused?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Care to look at 1990s Somalia? Lots of starving, poor people = lots of crime.
    California is not a lawless third world nation with no opportunity.

    Tell me, do you really think nothing will change if welfare dries up entirely? That the millions on welfare will not change their behaviors?
    I think their behavior absolutely will change. I think they'll start looking for a job pretty damn quick when the freebies run out.

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Tase Me Bro View Post
    I think their behavior absolutely will change. I think they'll start looking for a job pretty damn quick when the freebies run out.
    I think most of them will move to some other freebie state.

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    I think most of them will move to some other freebie state.
    Yeah, that too.

  7. #167
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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Tase Me Bro View Post
    California is not a lawless third world nation with no opportunity.
    At the moment it is not.

    I think their behavior absolutely will change. I think they'll start looking for a job pretty damn quick when the freebies run out.
    Probably. But remember that many people on welfare don't exactly have the skills required to obtain jobs that can meet their financial needs. Remember that a lot of people on welfare HAD jobs at one time and were productive members of society. When they take the goods jobs, the rest of the welfare scum who don't have skills will eventually succumb to crime. Furthermore, what if there aren't jobs. Like now.

    Furthermore, cutting welfare like the EITC is stupid. We want to reward work.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    This question does not even matter. We have to decide whether or not it is good that we should give our money to those who are trying to rob us.
    I was not aware that all on welfare are otherwise trying to rob us. Tell me, my friend who use to work for investment banking who is now unemployed, is she trying to rob us?

    No one ever said that everyone on welfare is trying to rob us. But no one is arguing that no one on welfare won't rob us.

    Which man do you see as doing the better action, the one who gives his money, or the one who refuses to be abused?
    Question that ignores reality. Which is better, living in a world where you pay minimal taxes to welfare, or a world where crime is through the roof and one must defend their property with guns on a regular basis?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    I was not aware that all on welfare are otherwise trying to rob us. Tell me, my friend who use to work for investment banking who is now unemployed, is she trying to rob us?
    Is she applying for welfare?

    Then yes, she is.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    No one ever said that everyone on welfare is trying to rob us. But no one is arguing that no one on welfare won't rob us.
    You're right.

    If they're on welfare, they're robbing us, not trying to.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Question that ignores reality. Which is better, living in a world where you pay minimal taxes to welfare, or a world where crime is through the roof and one must defend their property with guns on a regular basis?
    If every household avails themselves of their guaranteed freedom to own guns, as many of any type they wish, then crime doesn't go through the roof, the mortuary business for criminals does, for a little while. The smarter ones figure it out eventually.

    Since people have to defend their property now with guns, what's the difference? I'd rather be shooting criminals than feeding politicians my money.

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    Re: California Considers Flat Tax and Completely Eliminating Welfare

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    I was not aware that all on welfare are otherwise trying to rob us. Tell me, my friend who use to work for investment banking who is now unemployed, is she trying to rob us?

    No one ever said that everyone on welfare is trying to rob us. But no one is arguing that no one on welfare won't rob us.
    Obviously just a personal attack. Your argument is to pay people not to rob us. So let's continue.

    Question that ignores reality. Which is better, living in a world where you pay minimal taxes to welfare, or a world where crime is through the roof and one must defend their property with guns on a regular basis?
    How does it ignore reality? Was crime "through the roof" in this country before welfare? Answer my question.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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