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Thread: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

  1. #41
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    Re: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    East Coast Grappling Championship?
    Export Credit and Guarantee Corporation of India Ltd.?

    Ok old man, you could take me with one arm tied behind your back.

    Tell us some war stories. Maybe I could learn something.

    They had food in the clubs you went to?

    Okay, we've both prowled in a circle and growled with our ears laid back. Now maybe we can talk turkey.

    You annoyed me, because you talked down to me like I was a punk, which I am definately not. I returned the favor, and doubt you liked it any more than I did.

    Okay, you don't know me and I don't know you. I don't know what you've done, and you don't know what I've done. Tell ya what... I'll do you the courtesy of assuming you have some actual experience in dealing with violence, you return the favor...because I definately do.

    Putting aside all the rhetoric and penis-fencing, let's look at the substance of your arguments.

    You assert that
    1. Millions of barfights will turn into millions of gunfights, because the drunks will have guns.

    Rebuttal: Not everybody has a permit. You have to have a clean record, and keep it clean, to have a carry permit. Permit holders have an excellent record of staying out of trouble. Habitual drunken brawlers with a rap sheet as long as my arm ain't getting a carry permit.
    Point two: Illegal to drink and carry still. Permit holders want to keep those permits, so they're generally pretty careful not to do things that will lose it.
    Point three: Bar owners can still post their bar "no guns" and it applies. There's a difference between a nice restaurant that serves alcohol, or a bar that caters to a middle-class clientele, and a redneck dive or hood joint. The latter will probably be posted, and permit holders who want to stay out of trouble and keep that permit better stay out of them anyway.

    2. You assert, If you're carrying a gun, someone will take it away from you.

    Lord, if I've heard this once...
    It isn't that easy. First of all its a concealed-carry permit. Meaning if you're doing it right, nobody is likely to know you have a gun on you. They can't take what they don't know is there.
    Second, taking a gun isn't like taking candy from a baby. Well, if you're dealing with a total dweeb and you're well trained, it may be fairly easy. A lot of permit holders also have hand-to-hand training; I do. A lot of permit holders get advanced firearms instruction, in how to disarm people and how to retain your weapon against a disarm attempt.
    I'm not saying it is impossible, just that its not as simon-simple as many people make it sound. The first part is knowing who has a gun, and where the gun is. If they're doing it right you'll hardly ever know either of these things.

    3. You say, the presence of a gun may escalate a fight into a killing.

    Well, in this you could have some point. IF Joe is running his mouth about his piece and what he's going to do...well he's an idiot to start with but it could happen. Most of the time you aren't going to know that an educated gunman is carrying at all, until it is out. Crime statistics indicate that when a citizen is armed the perp usually runs off. A properly educated gunman is going to try to avoid penis-fencing barfights, nobody really wins and it isn't worth it once you're past 25.

    Self defense requires a number of components to be legal. You must be where you have a right to be, doing what you have a legal right to do. In many jurisdictions you must be without fault in the incident. You must believe yourself to be in imminent danger. A "reasonable man" in your position should also believe himself in imminent danger. Generally, just because someone is armed and maybe running his mouth, isn't of itself justification to kill him on the spot. If he makes a verbal threat, then makes a gesture that indicates he is going to carry out that threat, then you've got cause. Jeopardy plus Opportunity plus Ability.

    The short version is, its not going to be a case where every power-drinker and drunken brawler chugging Jack Daniels is packing heat. To be legal, you have to have a permit/clean record, the bar is not posted, and you're not drinking.

    If it were lawful to get drunk while carrying, hail even I would oppose that. Guns and drinking do not mix.

    Are we understanding each other a little better now?

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 06-07-09 at 11:48 PM.

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  2. #42
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    Re: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Now this I don't understand. Tennessee has some of the toughest DWI laws in the country, but they now pass a law that says that you can wear a gun in a bar while getting drunk? That is sure going to cut down on crimes of passion, committed in drunken rages, isn't it?

    I don't know about anybody else, but IMHO, every member of the Tennessee Congress that voted this bill into law and overrode the governor's veto deserves a share in this year's Idiot of the Year Awards.

    Article is here.
    Tennessee is sure to produce tons of material for the next Darwin Awards.

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    Re: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Okay, we've both prowled in a circle and growled with our ears laid back. Now maybe we can talk turkey.

    You annoyed me, because you talked down to me like I was a punk, which I am definately not. I returned the favor, and doubt you liked it any more than I did.

    Okay, you don't know me and I don't know you. I don't know what you've done, and you don't know what I've done. Tell ya what... I'll do you the courtesy of assuming you have some actual experience in dealing with violence, you return the favor...because I definately do.

    Putting aside all the rhetoric and penis-fencing, let's look at the substance of your arguments.

    You assert that
    1. Millions of barfights will turn into millions of gunfights, because the drunks will have guns.

    Rebuttal: Not everybody has a permit. You have to have a clean record, and keep it clean, to have a carry permit. Permit holders have an excellent record of staying out of trouble. Habitual drunken brawlers with a rap sheet as long as my arm ain't getting a carry permit.
    Point two: Illegal to drink and carry still. Permit holders want to keep those permits, so they're generally pretty careful not to do things that will lose it.
    Point three: Bar owners can still post their bar "no guns" and it applies. There's a difference between a nice restaurant that serves alcohol, or a bar that caters to a middle-class clientele, and a redneck dive or hood joint. The latter will probably be posted, and permit holders who want to stay out of trouble and keep that permit better stay out of them anyway.

    2. You assert, If you're carrying a gun, someone will take it away from you.

    Lord, if I've heard this once...
    It isn't that easy. First of all its a concealed-carry permit. Meaning if you're doing it right, nobody is likely to know you have a gun on you. They can't take what they don't know is there.
    Second, taking a gun isn't like taking candy from a baby. Well, if you're dealing with a total dweeb and you're well trained, it may be fairly easy. A lot of permit holders also have hand-to-hand training; I do. A lot of permit holders get advanced firearms instruction, in how to disarm people and how to retain your weapon against a disarm attempt.
    I'm not saying it is impossible, just that its not as simon-simple as many people make it sound. The first part is knowing who has a gun, and where the gun is. If they're doing it right you'll hardly ever know either of these things.

    3. You say, the presence of a gun may escalate a fight into a killing.

    Well, in this you could have some point. IF Joe is running his mouth about his piece and what he's going to do...well he's an idiot to start with but it could happen. Most of the time you aren't going to know that an educated gunman is carrying at all, until it is out. Crime statistics indicate that when a citizen is armed the perp usually runs off. A properly educated gunman is going to try to avoid penis-fencing barfights, nobody really wins and it isn't worth it once you're past 25.

    Self defense requires a number of components to be legal. You must be where you have a right to be, doing what you have a legal right to do. In many jurisdictions you must be without fault in the incident. You must believe yourself to be in imminent danger. A "reasonable man" in your position should also believe himself in imminent danger. Generally, just because someone is armed and maybe running his mouth, isn't of itself justification to kill him on the spot. If he makes a verbal threat, then makes a gesture that indicates he is going to carry out that threat, then you've got cause. Jeopardy plus Opportunity plus Ability.

    The short version is, its not going to be a case where every power-drinker and drunken brawler chugging Jack Daniels is packing heat. To be legal, you have to have a permit/clean record, the bar is not posted, and you're not drinking.

    If it were lawful to get drunk while carrying, hail even I would oppose that. Guns and drinking do not mix.

    Are we understanding each other a little better now?

    G.
    Awesome post.

    You should pick an opponent and have Capt'n reopen the True Debate forum for you.

  4. #44
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    Re: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

    So it's illegal to carry a gun while going to a bar to get drunk. But going into a bar with a gun is now legal? I hear that driving while drunk is still illegal too. All it takes is one drink according to the commercials.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 06-07-09 at 11:53 PM.
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    Re: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Alright. So it's still illegal to carry a gun while drunk......I hear that driving while drunk is still illegal too.
    You want to ban cars?

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    Re: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Tennessee is sure to produce tons of material for the next Darwin Awards.
    Although that is mainly because New Yorkers and Californians tend to consider it a great risk when their latte is too hot.

    Don't you know what holding a handgun does to your manicure?
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You want to ban cars?
    Seems to me that this law is pretty irrelevant and regardless of what it says, people will walk into bars with guns anyways. This just tells them that now they can do it just that if they don't drink. Which is you know. Kind of like putting a 5 year old kid in front of a pedophile and daring him to touch just to see how long it takes. I know you don't drink. But I know of very few people who walk into bars for the finely aged foods.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Seems to me that this law is pretty irrelevant and regardless of what it says, people will walk into bars with guns anyways. This just tells them that now they can do it just that if they don't drink. Which is you know. Kind of like putting a 5 year old kid in front of a pedophile and daring him to touch just to see how long it takes. I know you don't drink. But I know of very few people who walk into bars for the finely aged foods.
    If the same people are going to do it anyway, than those people are already doing it now, and the only people who can't are the one's who won't get into drunken shootouts.

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    Re: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Although that is mainly because New Yorkers and Californians tend to consider it a great risk when their latte is too hot.
    Huh? What does that have to do with the Darwin Awards?

    Hint: You have better chance of receiving one if you marry within your family.

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    Re: Tennessee lawmakers approve handguns in bars, override veto

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Huh? What does that have to do with the Darwin Awards?
    The liberal states don't win them much because they tend to consider a latte that is too hot a great risk. It was a joke, you hinted that the great state of Tennessee will win lots of them because they're stupid and I hinted the liberal states are pansies and that is why they won't win many.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 06-08-09 at 12:09 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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