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Thread: Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

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    Re: Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    Actually triad,

    You might want to learn some history WWII actually started June 28th 1919 with the signing of The Treaty of Versailles at the end of WWI.

    But I can take it a tad father if you like with the following German Aggressive moves,

    1 In 1932 the German government announced it would no longer adhere to the treaty's military limitations, citing the Allies' violation of the treaty by failing to initiate military limitations on themselves as called for in the preamble of Part V of the Treaty of Versailles.

    2 In March 1935 Adolf Hitler violated the Treaty of Versailles by introducing compulsory military conscription in Germany and rebuilding the armed forces. This included a new Navy (Kriegsmarine), the first full armoured divisions (Panzerwaffe), and an Air Force (Luftwaffe).

    3 In June 1935 the United Kingdom effectively withdrew from the treaty with the signing of the Anglo-German Naval Agreement.

    4 In March 1936 Hitler violated the treaty by reoccupying the demilitarized zone in the Rhineland.

    5 In March 1938 Hitler violated the treaty by annexing Austria in the Anschluss.

    6 In September 1938 Hitler with approval of France, Britain and Italy violated the Treaty by annexing Czechoslovak border regions, the Sudetenland

    7 In March 1939 Hitler violated the treaty by occupying the rest of Czechoslovakia.


    All this lead up tot he September 1st 1939 invasion of Poland by Germany.

    Now you want to discuss WWII history great let's do it but lets also stick to the truth and facts.
    WWII started on September 3, 1939.

    Everything up to that was not World War II especially not stating it started in 1919 by using what is widely considered one of the root causes propelling Hitler to power amongst the Germans.

    Last time the Germans themselves even bring up Versailles is after France Surrenders (June 23 1940)..."Righting the crime of Versailles" as the Germans saw it.


    1. 1932 saw series of diplomatic back and forths followed by the five(UK, France, Germany, USA, Italy) party agreements..
    January 30, 1933 Hitler takes power.
    Mid 1933 a four party agreement was made. At which ironically the French ambassador said versailles was dead.

    2. Third Reich officially announced it was re-arming on March 10 1935...already had started. But still observing the territorial requirements of Versailles as well as the Locarno agreement.

    3. June 1935 UK withdrew effectively(but not officially) from Versailles by agreeing to the Anglo-German naval agreements.

    4. Effectively ended the Versailles Treaty. Hitler bluffed and admitted that had the French stood up Germany would have had to run with its tails between its legs..but it worked.

    5 Was part of Versailles to not allow Austria to unify with Germany..by the Anchluss nobody cared.

    6, 7 Verasailles is long dead and everyone involved knew it.



    You want to discuss WWII history or the road to it.... at least do so yourself instead of copy and pasting commentary from wikipedia.
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles]Treaty of Versailles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    Violations segment....

    Anyway same source(wikipedia..World War II)

    The start of the war is generally held to be September 1 1939, with the German invasion of Poland and subsequent declarations of war on Germany by most of the countries in the British Empire and Commonwealth, and by France
    I'm the kinda guy who reads a 3,500 pg book detailing the lives of Hitler and Stalin. Or the memoirs of Manstein. Unlike George C Scott I have actually read Rommels book..and DeGaulles as well. WWII in Europe(pacific to a lesser extent) has been my "thing" since I was a kid.
    I'm not the kind of guy who reads the HS history book and thinks it in-depth.
    IOW I've learned some WWII history..in fact I'd safely say Ive learned much much more then the average person ever will bother with.

    Hitler did not expect the United Kingdom or France to back up Poland. When they did WWII began. Would have likely happened anyway..but that is how it began.


    Deal with the historical reality. Or don't.
    Whichever you chose I frankly don't care..just don't try to BS me.
    Last edited by Triad; 06-08-09 at 04:13 AM.

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    Re: Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    Medenev is Putins Sock puppet.
    He is merely a filler loyal to and chosen by Putin.
    Putin makes policy .. Medenev voices it.
    Putin will run Russia for the remainder of his natural life if he so choses...he's very popular and IMO more comparable to a leader in the 30's then anyone in power anywhere else.
    He's very smart, extremely nationalistic, popular, militaristic, controlled, and dangerous in his ambitions.
    I think he will take Russia to seizing back as much of the Ukraine as he can.. by war if necessary.
    Sock puppet indeed! Execellent choice of of words. Putin is a Stalinite asshole who needs to be removed from power. His influence needs to curbed. Medvedev is Russia's version of Geroge W. Bush; Putin is an unscrupulous power mad looney toon... sort of like Dick Cheney.

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    Re: Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    WWII started on September 3, 1939.

    Everything up to that was not World War II especially not stating it started in 1919 by using what is widely considered one of the root causes propelling Hitler to power amongst the Germans.

    Last time the Germans themselves even bring up Versailles is after France Surrenders (June 23 1940)..."Righting the crime of Versailles" as the Germans saw it.


    1. 1932 saw series of diplomatic back and forths followed by the five(UK, France, Germany, USA, Italy) party agreements..
    January 30, 1933 Hitler takes power.
    Mid 1933 a four party agreement was made. At which ironically the French ambassador said versailles was dead.

    2. Third Reich officially announced it was re-arming on March 10 1935...already had started. But still observing the territorial requirements of Versailles as well as the Locarno agreement.

    3. June 1935 UK withdrew effectively(but not officially) from Versailles by agreeing to the Anglo-German naval agreements.

    4. Effectively ended the Versailles Treaty. Hitler bluffed and admitted that had the French stood up Germany would have had to run with its tails between its legs..but it worked.

    5 Was part of Versailles to not allow Austria to unify with Germany..by the Anchluss nobody cared.

    6, 7 Verasailles is long dead and everyone involved knew it.



    You want to discuss WWII history or the road to it.... at least do so yourself instead of copy and pasting commentary from wikipedia.
    Treaty of Versailles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Violations segment....

    Anyway same source(wikipedia..World War II)



    I'm the kinda guy who reads a 3,500 pg book detailing the lives of Hitler and Stalin. Or the memoirs of Manstein. Unlike George C Scott I have actually read Rommels book..and DeGaulles as well. WWII in Europe(pacific to a lesser extent) has been my "thing" since I was a kid.
    I'm not the kind of guy who reads the HS history book and thinks it in-depth.
    IOW I've learned some WWII history..in fact I'd safely say Ive learned much much more then the average person ever will bother with.

    Hitler did not expect the United Kingdom or France to back up Poland. When they did WWII began. Would have likely happened anyway..but that is how it began.


    Deal with the historical reality. Or don't.
    Whichever you chose I frankly don't care..just don't try to BS me.
    Triad,

    You really want to have a go at me on WWII History bring it buddy you are no where even close to my League junior.

    As for quote Winkki not even close Sir that was from the top of my head. WWII started with the signing of the Treaty all REAL WWII Historian agree that it was the Treaty that was the Cause of Germanys aggression.

    Yes I have read General Rommels Bio it was a requirement at War College you might have heard of the place. Question have you ever read Rommel essay(s) on the use of tanks in a tactile battle or his thought's on how to used close air support in conjunting with a armour attack.

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    Re: Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

    As for quote Winkki not even close Sir that was from the top of my head. WWII started with the signing of the Treaty all REAL WWII Historian agree that it was the Treaty that was the Cause of Germanys aggression.
    It's pretty arbitrary, and thus pointless, to argue when the definite "start" of a historical event takes place, as one can continually trace its roots further and further. Generally, the causes of war are not where the start of a war lies, for the reason I've just given, but declaration of war is used as the "start" of the event due to convenience's sake.

    Everything you've said of course is factually true I just don't see the point in arguing something so arbitrary. I mean, why stop at the signing of Versailles? Why not say that it started at the start of WWI, as that is what caused the Treaty in the first place? Or keep going back further, to say that it started when the causes of WWI started? It's a pointless and stupid argument that you're getting way too worked up over.

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    Re: Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    Well, see, it wasn't a WORLD war when Hitler invaded Poland intent on killing all the Poles. It became a WORLD war when other nations got involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    September 1 1939..Germany invades and Declares war on Poland. UK and France condemn demand withdraw in 72 hours.

    3 later the UK and then France Declared War on Germany after giving them those 3 days to withdraw all troops from Poland.

    Hitler was shocked they had declared war asking Ribbentrop after a brief moment of rather stunned silence on learning the UK had declared war.."what now?"

    Learn your history. Or be like Glinda..ignorant.
    WTF? How is my statement incorrect?
    Last edited by Glinda; 06-08-09 at 12:11 PM.

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    Re: Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

    I have always believed everything the Russian governments says and have ordered my children to do likewise.
    It's nothing more than X's and O's.

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    Re: Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion89 View Post
    Triad,

    You really want to have a go at me on WWII History bring it buddy you are no where even close to my League junior.

    As for quote Winkki not even close Sir that was from the top of my head. WWII started with the signing of the Treaty all REAL WWII Historian agree that it was the Treaty that was the Cause of Germanys aggression.

    Yes I have read General Rommels Bio it was a requirement at War College you might have heard of the place. Question have you ever read Rommel essay(s) on the use of tanks in a tactile battle or his thought's on how to used close air support in conjunting with a armour attack.

    Your first sentence is childish.

    Your second sentence is made mute by the link to the very points you made word for word.
    Regardless... No Historian of any worth is going to agree with you that WWII started in 1919..they will agree with you that the Versailles treaty was a core reason for the Second World War.


    Thirdly-I doubt you have read anything but a picture history of WWII since you where 16 or so. I base that on your responses.




    There no argument here..the official start of WWII is either September 1, 1939 if you take the invasion of Poland as the start or September 3, 1939 if you take the declarations of war by the UK, France, and various commonwealth nations(canada, etc)

    If you can't handle historical facts then go play with yourself..don't bother ****ing around with me.

    I don't like rewriting history or changing it because the messy nature of it isn't as clean cut as group x or Y wants.
    Last edited by Triad; 06-08-09 at 06:25 PM.

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    Re: Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

    Triad, please answer the question.

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    Re: Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/us-par...n-thyself.html

    Thanks, zimmer, for the post. I have 2 things to add.
    1. The KGB did not flood universities with Marxists literature. It helped, but the methods and the ways were a lot more sophisticated, and I would have to write pages about them.
    2. Your source was attacked as a kind of standing alone, so you could do more efforts to show that everything he says is as well confirmed by a whole number of KGBists who went publicly, as well as by many former Soviet authors not affiliated with the KGB. It is a kind of a common knowledge in the former USSR, anyone who has experience of reading Russians and talking to Russians of the era of the KGB can tell – this IS where Libs came from.

    With the collapse of the USSR this scheme of the subversion has collapsed too, but when there is hardly a way of revival of it in Russia, it has taken life of its own in the US and the West. Libs has taken over the media and American universities and they are in full business of continuing the deeds of the KGB. With such a result as election of Obama, it is remains to be seen yet who has won the Cold war (it is known to everyone in the USSR that “ideological war” was a part of the cold war, and it was the main part of it, it is not known to Libs in the US that such war was conducted and they are the casualties).

    Would such a collapse of the US be reversible or it would not? Orwellian world has been imposed on us. Put TV on, - watch MSNBC or CNN for a few minutes, - all lies and perversion, - soon you would feel like vomiting. Listen to professors, historians, economists, socializers, Obama and his followers - soon you would feel like vomiting.

    Of course, the UK, BBC or Telegraph are known as sources of Liberal lies and perversion. And here we observe a whole bunch of subverted and brainwashed people expressing their Russo-phobia. It is of no surprise as democracy is spreading not only in Europe, but now - with election of Obama - it becomes the political stance and construction of the US. For centuries this country attracted and appalled people around the world for its stand for liberties and freedom, now liberalism is corroding the very core of American beliefs, the American construction.

    Evolutionists and atheists operate with the same clichés and paragraphs as they were heard at the lectures on Scientific Communism and Scientific atheism in universities of the USSR, when everyone had to attend. Then I have to guess 25 times where such a spread of evolutionism and atheism in the US came from, and where it would be without the KGB. I have to forget about the officers of the KGB telling me. I have to play stupid, because one cannot talk to Libs on any intellectual level.

    The KGB had a skill of changing a word or omitting a word or inserting a word, manipulating emotions and feelings, and so I have pointed many times that logic of semantics is not semantics of logic. Lie is NOT the truth, spending is NOT investment, borrowing is NOT making money, and Tsars of auto/ bank industries ARE [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar]Tsar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] in spite of all the liberal media and liberal university professors claiming the opposite. ( I shouldn’t even put the word liberal before the words media or university professors.)

    It looks like Russia on other side turns into the place were liberty becomes more important, more pronounced and defended from the cancer of democracy than it is in the Obama’s US. It is funny to watch how American and western Libs insist that their revision of history is allowed by the freedom of thought and speech clause, but when it is reported that a guy is allowed to do the same in Russia the Libs do not even want to know what the guy really says but attack him and the Russian Gov-nt along with him.


    What does Col Kovalev's paper say, - nobody knows or ever interested to know. I bet not even this guy Alexander Drobyshevsky, does not know: Google Translate


    ‘’

    Russia Defense Ministry has named placed on the site of the Ministry of the article, which the author puts the blame in Poland started the Second World War, "a discussion".
    According to the press-service management and information DOD Alexander Drobyshevsky, who leads the Interfax ", the material should not be construed as an official point of view of the Ministry. ‘’

    I bet Kovalev himself does not know what his paper says unless he has read Anti Russian, Pro-Liberal articles about what it says. Supposedly it should be somewhere here, The Russian Federation Ministry of Defence official homepage on the Internet but may be somebody can be more lucky than I to find it.

    This is a very liberal thing – ‘’I have not read it, I have not listen to it, but Rush is lying’’. Long before Rush, here on DP, I laid arguments and facts proving that Muslim terrorists could take a break while Obama was destroying the US. Still Rush is blamed by Libs, - again without listening to him or me or to themselves. It is a very Liberal thing – Libs don’t even listen to themselves.


    There is nothing in ‘’the news’’ but a total misrepresentation of Medvedev’s Comission and ‘’Under planned legislation, backed by Mr Medvedev, any Russian or foreigner who claims that the Soviet Union occupied Poland or the Baltic States could face up to five years in prison.’’

    Why such a misrepresentation is necessary? American and Western historians and socialists of Obama’s school now dominate in colleges, universities and media. They are rewriting history. They make heroes out of members of Waffen-SS, Gestapo and SD, and they encourage erection of memorials and celebration memorial days of these heroes of etnical cleansing and murdering of children. We see The US and NATO also don’t mind such heroization of the SS for the sake of spreading democracy. We see som rise of brainwashed skinhead movements in Russia. Excluding the skinheads and admirers of democracy ( or deRmocracy =crapocray) the WWII for Russians is like Holocaust for Jews.


    Whatever could be real goals of Stalin, whoever started the WWII (most of honest historians in Russia agree that if Hitler was pushed and encouraged by Stalin and that if he did not attack the USSR Stalin would have conquered Europe within months if not in 1914 then no later than in 1942) – still Russians and other ethnicities of the USSR were fighting a defensive war against Nazism, they still sacrificed more than any other nation and contributed more than any other nation to defeat and destroy Nazism, which according to the absolute moral truth denied by Libs was bad, evil. ‘’World War II casualties of the Soviet Union from all related causes are commonly estimated in excess of 20,000,000, both civilians and military. With the total pre-war population of the country being about 170,000,000, the loss constitutes about 10–15% of the population’’.Their personal cause was moral. Their pride and sorrow is moral. And so far it seems they will be standing by it against the US and the NATO. This is their mentality which cannot be explained to a Western liberal.


    That’s why Russian government has to take some actions to rebuff such a revision and perversion of history and such a denial of the findings of Nuremberg trial. Of course there is no imprisonment in the deal, though it has been reported that one of the parties suggested such a legislation, - I don’t know what they do in Israel to the deniers of Holocaust and glorifiers of Waffen-SS. However countries of the NATO are barking at Russia, the moral truth – the existence of which is denied by Libs – is on the Russian side. And the moral truth is lot more powerful weapon than all American technology, as it is known to anyone who has a minimal idea about the art of warfare.



    MOSCOW, May 19 - RIA Novosti. President of Russia Dmitry Medvedev signed a decree "On the Commission under the President of the Russian Federation to counter the attempts of falsification of history to the detriment of Russia, said on Tuesday the Kremlin press service.
    Medvedev has repeatedly affirmed the inadmissibility of the falsification of history, including the Great Patriotic War. In an entry in his video blog
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GB6MeojjbQ]YouTube - " Historical Truth and Our Memory." 2009 05 07[/ame]
    , dated 8 May, the President noted that the attempts of falsifications "are becoming more stringent, angry, aggressive."
    At a meeting with veterans of May 7, the head of state stressed that Russia will always respond to attempts to distort the essence of this event. The President invited the veterans to discuss preparations for the 65 th anniversary of Victory, as well as talk about how representation of this victory evolved, what grade it received immediately after World War II and attempts to misinterpret it.
    MFA of Russia regularly draws attention to attempts to revise history in several countries of the former USSR. Thus, in particular, the Russian Foreign Ministry has repeatedly expressed outrage towards gathering of veterans of the 20th Estonian Waffen-SS division in Estonia According to the Russian side, support for such actions - indulgence attempts to promote Nazism, and similar neo-Nazi manifestations can not be used in EU member states.
    Bilateral relations between Russia and Latvia is seriously aggravated the ongoing heroization of former Latvian SS units in this country. While in 2008 the President and the Prime Minister of Latvia, condemned the neo-Nazi action on 16 March on the "anniversary of the establishment of the Latvian SS Legion, and called on citizens to refrain from participating in them, the authorities permitted the holding of gatherings Riga legionnaires and their followers have noted in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
    In late November, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs condemned the creation of the “pantheon" of the Nazi henchmen - OUN-UPA fighters, guilty of mass killings of Soviet soldiers, civilians, peaceful Polish citizens in Volyn next to he memorial to Soviet soldiers who died during the Great Patriotic War in Lvov in the Ukraine. However, as stated by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia, the graves of Soviet soldiers desecrate. Ukrainian Foreign Ministry said in a commentary that the way of Ukraine - in civilized Europe, where respect for past and present of each nation. "
    In January of this year, speaking at a meeting of the Russian organizing committee of "victory" on the preparation for celebrating the 65 anniversary of Victory in Great Patriotic War, Medvedev said that to engage in dialogue with those countries, which exalts and rehabilitate fascism, it must be neat without diplomatic language.
    In his view, it is necessary to more tightly define the position of Russia on this issue and talk directly with partners on issues related to rehabilitation and aggrandizement, in fact, criminals. "


    Among measures suggested by the Committee is publication of secret archives of Stalin’s government and the KGB.
    Rallying for moral values of Fascism, restoring ideas of Communism and Socialism and brainwashing the present generations in media and universities, washing out memories about American teenagers perished in the meat grinder of Normandy or jungles of Vietnam fighting the pure evil of Nazism and Communism Liberals are representing moral values of the evil, if the evil can have such. It cannot have. Immorality cannot be a moral value. Liberals deny existence of such value. But the denial of reality by the media and professors does not mean that the reality does not exist.

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