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Thread: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

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    Re: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    You ignored half of my post. The oil embargo along with refusal to accept expansion into the south backed Japan into a corner. Addressing half of the post and then calling it all wrong is silly.
    Um no refusal to sell them oil would have forced Japan to end their illegal expansionist and genocidal war into China. They had two choices, quit their illegal war in Asia or get no oil. They opted for a third option to attack the U.S. in an unprovoked act of aggression. It is the sovereign right of any nation-state to trade goods with whom ever they like, this is neither an act of aggression, nor an act of war. It was not Japan's sovereign right to lay siege to the Asian mainland.

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    Re: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Liz Peeps View Post
    Wow, looks like Obama's got some serious balls calling out holocaust deniers, the very people looked so highly upon by our society. Damn, the guys got some guts, you got to give him that.
    You forgot your sarcasm tag.

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    Re: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Um no refusal to sell them oil would have forced Japan to end their illegal expansionist and genocidal war into China. They had two choices, quit their illegal war in Asia or get no oil. They opted for a third option to attack the U.S. in an unprovoked act of aggression. It is the sovereign right of any nation-state to trade goods with whom ever they like, this is neither an act of aggression, nor an act of war. It was not Japan's sovereign right to lay siege to the Asian mainland.
    What do you not understand about "you ignored half of my post?"

    Please reread what I wrote and respond to my actual entire post rather than pretending that half of it does not exist.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Well, how does one define aggression? The US clearly did not start the shooting war, but aggression comes in many different packages.
    Aggression is deliberately sending flocks of Zeros to attack a sitting navy at harbor in peacetime on a Sunday morning without warning or declaration of war in the explicit hopes that the punch in the nose would be hard enought that the United States would sit down and cry like a baby.

    Aggression is not deciding that since Japan's imperialist efforts in Manchuria and it's threatening posture to US interests in the Far East were disturbing that we'll stop selling them fuel.

    That's not even passive aggression. That's merely saying, "you're a bad boy and we don't want to play with you".


    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Remember the US cut off their oil and told Japan you cannot expand south.
    You are aware that the US was "south" of Japan, right? Not to mention the UK and the Netherlands.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    But Japan needed a source of oil for industrialization and modernization.
    No.

    Japan needed fuel for it's war machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    The US more or less pushed them into a corner.
    The Japanese should have performed a complete threat analysis prior to attacking a seemingly prone China, and it SERIOUSLY should have gotten it's head examined when pondering attacking the United States, the world's industrial leader, when Japan was having difficulty subduing China a largely agrarian nation with limited industrial capacity.

    That being said, guess who is considered to start wars in the history books?

    Wrong. It's the guy who throws the first punch. Japan did that at Pearl Harbor.

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    While we did not start the shooting, it's hard to say we did not provoke them.
    No, that's not hard. Watch.

    We did not provoke the Japanese.

    There, see how easy it is to tell the truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Whether anyone in the government intended for this to occur, I don't know, but the options given were "stop modernizing your economy" or "war."
    The option given was "Yo, we don't like you, we're not selling to you."

    Free peoples are allowed to do that.

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    Re: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Nobody ignores the 5+ million people from the other groups who suffered from the Holocaust.
    But let's assume you have 10 groups of colors, each having different shades of colors in them;
    Red, blue, yellow, white, orange, purple, brown, black, gray and green.
    Now, when you take 10 colors out of each of the first 9 groups, and then take 100 colors out of the green group, the green group sure as **** earns the right to whine the most.

    Again, nobody denies there were other groups suffering from the holocaust, but no group was nearly exterminated as the Jews.
    Today there are about 5.5 million Jews living in Israel, the biggest Jewish community in the world.
    Simple math says that's still less than the number of Jews who were murdered in the Holocaust.
    Well, actually Wiki lists the number of American jews in the US at closer to six million, and there's jews in Europe still, the efforts of Germany, France, Poland, and Russia notwithstanding.

    The gypsies were probably more effectively wiped out than the Jews, if only because there weren't as many to begin with.

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    Re: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Well, actually Wiki lists the number of American jews in the US at closer to six million, and there's jews in Europe still, the efforts of Germany, France, Poland, and Russia notwithstanding.

    The gypsies were probably more effectively wiped out than the Jews, if only because there weren't as many to begin with.
    Wiki says Israel has more Jews than America, so I took Israel as the biggest Jewish community.
    Yes, they failed to extinct the Jewish race, but tell me, how many Jews are there in Europe today?

    And about the Gypsies, yeah, well they're not a race for their own.
    They're Anglo-Romanians or something like that.
    Today there's supposed to be about 300,000 of them in the world.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Wiki says Israel has more Jews than America, so I took Israel as the biggest Jewish community.
    Yes, they failed to extinct the Jewish race, but tell me, how many Jews are there in Europe today?

    And about the Gypsies, yeah, well they're not a race for their own.
    They're Anglo-Romanians or something like that.
    Today there's supposed to be about 300,000 of them in the world.
    The Gypsies are a race but suppose that they aren't does that justify the genocide against them without much attention given to the tragedy by the rest of the world ? How about the Armenians ? Before starting the Holocaust Hitler said "Go, kill without mercy. After all, who remembers the Armenians?"
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

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    Re: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    The Gypsies are a race but suppose that they aren't does that justify the genocide against them without much attention given to the tragedy by the rest of the world ? How about the Armenians ? Before starting the Holocaust Hitler said "Go, kill without mercy. After all, who remembers the Armenians?"
    No but he said something that is really close to that.
    "Nobody wants the Jews" or something along that line.
    It was after Western Europe chose to ignore the Nuremberg Laws, if I'm not wrong.
    And don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of forcing Turkey to admit the Armenian holocaust.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

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    Re: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Don't get all up in arms about it. You dropped a document and proclaimed it was FDR's 8 point plan for provoking Japan to war. You better substantiate that claim if you want to be taken seriously. Thus far you have not.
    It was a plan (note the indefinite article) by the U.S. government - which is a complex system in this context simplified to one figurehead, FDR. What further substantiation do you need? I never claimed this was anything more than circumstantial evidence - with governments that's usually the best evidence you can hope for.


    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    So... you are an anarchist?

    (thats the vibe im getting, I may be wrong though :P )
    Anarcho-Capitalism is my philosophy, but I'm also a gradualist and very much capable of short-term compromise.



    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    When you have some direct evidence, you might garner a bit more interest in this. Currently, you have posted none.
    You government apologists need to understand that the burden of proof is always on the buyer, not the seller. Government is not a natural institution, its existence is supposedly based on certain claims that it has the responsibility to justify. Failure to provide accountability is a breach of this responsibility.

    I'm not here trying to dig up FDR's corpse and put him on trial for crimes against humanity; I am here expressing skepticism of government as an institution, in all its functions, including wars, particularly the so-called "good wars". And my debunking of the claim that the U.S. government had some sort of a moral imperative for its actions in the Pacific theater before and during WW2 have been sufficient.

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    Re: Obama slams Holocaust deniers at concentration camp

    Let me remind the reader upfront that I am not here to defend the Axis Powers, but merely to debunk the black-and-white vision of history that the victorious governments are promoting. All governments are evil to some degree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lol@7 years later, so Japan didn't start invading Asia long before their attack on Pearl Harbor, ya tell that to the Chinese, Koreans, and Vietnamese.
    Yeah, but all the cool kids were doing it, including the United States. It doesn't justify the embargo and all the other provocations (see above).


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    FDR's ongoing impacts on the world would include liberal democracy for all of continental Europe and much of the Asian Pacific.
    The claim that East Asia has done better under American influence rather than Japanese is ridiculous - communism has killed countless millions of people in that region since WW2! Decades were wasted on destructive economic policies, and that has had a negative effect on the quality of life and life expectancy of billions more! Japan's more "hands-on" imperialism would have prevented that.

    The transition of East Asian countries to "liberal democracy" is an on-going process. It hasn't occurred after their "liberation" by the United States, but if/when their economic and cultural system have reached a point where it would be beneficial. That hasn't happened yet for the vast majority of the people in that region. Even Singapore, one of the freest economies in the world, remains very closed politically. No matter whether Japan on the United States is the regional hegemon, all statist political systems eventually lead to the same pragmatic outcome.

    "Liberal democracy" is just another means of social control that has proven itself to be most efficient when ruling sophisticated post-industrialized societies - plebs are allowed to keep a fraction of the fruits of their labor and are brainwashed to think they are free, which produces a greater total profit for the ruling class than a shorter leash would allow. It's not a moral positive in of itself.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Actually paleocon revisiionist arguments regarding FDR prolonging the Great Depression have been thoroughly debunked by those little things we here in the reality based community call facts, [...]
    The argument that government interventionism was the primary cause of the "Great Depression" (as well as the current recession) is not limited to "paleocons" - all economists without a pro-government bias agree on that issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    [...] there was only a slight recession between 1937 and 1938 4 years into FDR's term, the rest of his term saw huge economic growth of 9-10% every year FDR was in office and unemployment fell every year FDR was in office.
    FDR came in at the bottom of the depression, and saw average compound annual GDP growth of 8.5% for the duration of his administration, driven in part by on-going trends in mechanization and population growth that he had nothing to do with. GDP is especially misleading because it includes government spending, which obviously increased under FDR, as did the national debt. Government spending and government employment do not constitute an objective value.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    That is what we would refer to as a lie. It was U.S. developed, drilled, refined, and owned oil that was not sold to Japan, no threats were ever made to any nation regarding their trade relations with Japan.
    Once again, you are making a collectivist argument. In a market economy, which the United States was and still is to a degree, the government does not develop, drill, refine or anything - individuals do. Certain individuals, regardless of their nationality (including Latin America), wanted to sell oil to Japan. Uncle Sam (along with the British Empire and the Dutch Empire) prevented that - through an act of aggression.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Except that a) Japan was engaged in a aggressive war of conquest and in Asia and B) Israel has never once in their entire history engaged in a aggressive war and have accepted every single peace proposal since 1948 which hasn't called for the destruction of Israel through a demographic shift aka "the right of return".
    Japan was engaged in imperialism, which it claimed was welcome by its subject nations. No government's claim to power is ever unanimous - tens of millions of anarchists don't accept the rule of the United States, for example. Japan was a more popular empire than its European and American competitors were. That doesn't make it a "good empire", there is no such thing, but the arguments for American interventionism on moral grounds are without basis.

    And in regard to Israel, you're just not thinking critically. Semantics are used to trick you to believe that the creation of Israel wasn't a massive military invasion, but in fact it was. Doubleplusgood.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Um no they must end their aggressive genocidal war in the Asian mainland or we won't sell them any more oil to fuel their war machine. To which they responded with an act of war against Pearl Harbor.
    All governments exist through violence. Did Japan have any less business in Indochina than the United States had outside its 13 original colonies, as far as Hawaii or the Philippines?


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Jews began being mass murdered in 1939, if Hitlers ambition was not to slaughter all of the Jews then why exactly wasn't the Madagascar Plan ever initiated?
    The Madagascar Plan, as nutty as it may sound now, makes about as much sense as any other mass deportation or "pogrom" of Jews, which happened constantly throughout the European history. Oppression of non-conforming outsiders is a trait common to all civilizations, and it's subjective to say that Germany's treatment of the Jews was substantially worse than the crimes of any overseas colonial power, the chronological circumstances being the only major difference.

    That and other "evict the Jews" proposals had wide support, and it seems that the Germans were actually planning to go through with it - until the United States, the British Empire, and France entered the conflict after Germany's (re)invasion of Poland. It takes a lot of doing to transport millions of civilians that far through enemy-controlled waters, and Germany had other priorities. What would have happened if America had chosen a policy of non-interventionism is anybody's guess, but it's hard to imagine a scenario that wouldn't have led to fewer casualties, Jewish and otherwise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lol you cited a forum and the citation offered (with no link gee I wonder why?) which tracks back through a google search to Politics Religion Wake-up America, Jews, Judaism, neo-cons and America which hosts some interesting little neo-Nazi tidbits; such as, THE HIDDEN NATION OF THE JEWS Understanding Jewish Influence and JEWS IN THE MEDIA***
    What is the relevance of this ad hominem attack? The source I've referenced (indirectly) to explain Hitler's reasoning was chosen for its ideological similarity to him. There may be perfectly valid reasons why individuals of Jewish heritage were perceived as being disproportionally likely to be involved in communism, just as there are perfectly valid reasons why individuals of Japanese heritage were perceived to be disproportionally likely to be involved in "anti-American activities" during WW2. Neither of the two is justified.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    FYI Lenin and Stalin were both Christians.
    Lenin had a fractional Jewish heritage, and he was the very model of a "first generation atheist". Unsubstantiated sensationalist claims aside, there's no evidence that Stalin was anything but a Georgian / Ossetian (who are traditionally Christians), and a "first generation atheist" also. But none of this is relevant to the point I was making.

    Hitler believed that there was a dangerous movement within the Jewish community, which has both religious and ethnic aspects. He believed that while there may be some "good Jews", all Jews are presumed guilty unless proven useful. Hitler believed that the ends justify the means. Once again, none of this is very different from the Japanese-American internment, except of course the relative populations and economic circumstances.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    The U.S. was not in a period of expansion at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack, in fact this was a period of U.S. isolationism.
    Yes, a few small islands aside, U.S. did not add much territory prior to it, but that doesn't change the fact that FDR was looking for an excuse to enter WW2. America's interest was for influence, not land.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    MAGIC intercepts prove conclusively that Togo rejected Sato's proposal for unconditional surrender provided the imperial house is preserved, quite frankly sir you have no clue what you're talking about.
    First of all, nothing is ever "conclusive" when dealing with governments, because the dependent also handles all of the evidence. And your "they won't bend over all the way for us so we had to nuke them" mentality is simply irrational. Americans were free to leave Japan alone any time they wanted, before Pearl Harbor or after.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    Have you even heard of the plans for the "honorable death of 100 million"?
    Yes, the Japanese saw themselves as fighting a desperate war of self-defense with no way out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    They destroyed the entire Pacific fleet save for a few aircraft carriers.
    I've already explained how America provoked that action.



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    lol the Nipponese Empire was not a little nation [...]
    Everything is relative, especially in war. Japan, the only Axis power in the Pacific, in 1941 had 1/10th the GDP of USA + UK + France + USSR. And that that doesn't include the remainder of China, the Netherlands, Indonesia, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and so on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Ferris View Post
    [...] and they had been engaged in aggressive wars of conquest in mainland Asia and the Pacific for a decade before their attack on Pearl Harbor.
    The so-called "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" was no less legitimate than the British, Dutch, French, Soviet, or the American empires they were competing with.


    (Stupid post length limit...)

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