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Thread: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

  1. #51
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Tarnish? So you are saying that the United Kingdom Independence Party are not a nationalist group? Could have fooled me that is for sure. They claim to be a libertarian political party, in other words they cant or wont call themselves conservatives but in essence they are right wing. They call themselves "non-racist" to distinguish themselves from BNP, but we all know that in Europe the racist parties are almost universal right wing parties, and many of them are hiding behind a legitimacy of calling themselves "non racist". Le Pen's party calls it self as non racist.. and do you seriously believe they are?
    Pathetic. Not all right-wing parties are racist, and neither all racists parties are left wing. The Nazi party in Germany itself is for health care, liberal foreign policy, and public ownership of private property. Hardly conservative.

    Again, pathetic, as usual.

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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    UK, Netherlands vote in Euro elections - CNN.com

    Say hello to the future of regionalism.
    Judging by the local elections, it may be the same in European ones in UK. Conservatives dominating with UKIP gains.


  3. #53
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I'm saying they're not a far-right nationalist group, which was your original unsupported assertion. The term nationalist is vague.
    The hell it is vague. Nationalist is someone who prefers his or her nation, national identity, customs and so on, over anyone's else and will do anything to keep the area he or she is in as "pure" as possible and free from outside influence.

    So? The Tories are supposedly as well. Only to the hyperpartisan is rightwing the same as the far-right like the BNP.
    The Tories are conservatives. You can not just make up a new name for the same people, because some or part of the political sphere are suddenly unpopular. I know the US conservatives have done so with their libertarian bs, but this party is a conservative party. Their problem is they cant call themselves "conservative" since they would not be seen as "different" or an alternative to the Conservative party. And yet with the "libertarian" sticker they still dont get any support outside these elections because no one knows what the hell they stand for. And by the way almost every country has such a party, some more successful than others. National Front in France (Le Pen) is the French version. Does not change the fact that it is a conservative party with highly xenophobic borderline racist policies on many issues.

    Is this supposed to prove your previous hyperpartisan slur? It doesn't even attempt to deal with it.

    If one looks at UKIP they are not far-right at all. They are simply very similar to quite mainstream conservative or libertarian-conservative currents in England with an extra appeal to anyone Eurosceptic. To attempt tarnish them by linking them with the far-right and BNP, particularly when there is no attempt to even back it up, is simply hyperpartisan hackery.
    Give me a break. UKIP is a nationalist party, there is no doubt about that. Just look at what they call themselves. And you can not be a nationalist party without having certain "racist" and xenophobic aspects. And you can not deny that UKIP is not xenophobic.. they want to ban all immigration
    for 5 years for god sake!

    You have 2 types of nationalist parties.

    You have the xenophobic nationalist parties. These parties are the PC versions of the out right racist parties. The difference is in how they promote their views but in principle there aint that big a difference. These parties advocate the national identity over everything. They dont want anyone telling them what to do, and are sceptical of almost every single international agreement that puts some sort of "burden" on the nation.. real or not. In principle they could be against things like the Postal treaties or telecommunications treaties that give out country codes.. why dont we have the country code 1? These parties also advocate next to none or zero immigration, especially from "certain countries". These certain countries change over time. During the 50s and 60s it was the Spanish and Portuguese, now it is the Polish and people outside Europe. But it is always targeted against people with different traditions, who look different and speak different languages. These parties are often also highly fascist.

    Finally you have the out right racist parties like the BNP. They dont care how they are viewed and use inflammatory rhetoric to spread their views. Out with Muslims and so on. These are the neo nazi parties across Europe.

    Now members of both groups often overlap, and have so between the BNP and UKIP.

    No matter how you look at it, the similarities between the BNP and UKIP are striking. Both are xenophobic, blame foreigners for all the problems, and want to get rid of "non British" people.
    PeteEU

  4. #54
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    The hell it is vague. Nationalist is someone who prefers his or her nation, national identity, customs and so on, over anyone's else and will do anything to keep the area he or she is in as "pure" as possible and free from outside influence.
    The first part is simply someone who believes in national sovereignty. The latter is you meaningless bias.

    The Tories are conservatives. You can not just make up a new name for the same people, because some or part of the political sphere are suddenly unpopular. I know the US conservatives have done so with their libertarian bs, but this party is a conservative party. Their problem is they cant call themselves "conservative" since they would not be seen as "different" or an alternative to the Conservative party. And yet with the "libertarian" sticker they still dont get any support outside these elections because no one knows what the hell they stand for.
    Conservative is an ideology as well as a party. UKIP simply embodies certain ideals that fall well within the mainstream of both this ideology and party and yet don't get enough support by the party bosses in some people's eyes.

    And by the way almost every country has such a party, some more successful than others. National Front in France (Le Pen) is the French version.
    Rubbish, UKIP are not a far-right party and you have provided nothing to show they are.

    Does not change the fact that it is a conservative party with highly xenophobic borderline racist policies on many issues.
    This is an assertion not proof from someone who is extremely universalist, seemingly an enemy of national sovereignty and is out to tarnish anyone who does not believe in a federal EU.



    Give me a break. UKIP is a nationalist party, there is no doubt about that.
    So? Nationalist is a vague term, it includes those on the left and right and many different viewppints.
    And you can not be a nationalist party without having certain "racist" and xenophobic aspects.
    Rubbish, they are only racist and xenophobic to rabidly PC and universalist liberals.

    And you can not deny that UKIP is not xenophobic.. they want to ban all immigration
    for 5 years for god sake!
    They want reduced immigration, so do most Brits. That does not make them far-right or the same as the BNP. You are simply engaging in hyperpartisan labeling of your opponents in a pathetic attempt to discredit them.

    You have 2 types of nationalist parties.

    You have the xenophobic nationalist parties. These parties are the PC versions of the out right racist parties. The difference is in how they promote their views but in principle there aint that big a difference. These parties advocate the national identity over everything. They dont want anyone telling them what to do, and are sceptical of almost every single international agreement that puts some sort of "burden" on the nation.. real or not. In principle they could be against things like the Postal treaties or telecommunications treaties that give out country codes.. why dont we have the country code 1? These parties also advocate next to none or zero immigration, especially from "certain countries". These certain countries change over time. During the 50s and 60s it was the Spanish and Portuguese, now it is the Polish and people outside Europe. But it is always targeted against people with different traditions, who look different and speak different languages. These parties are often also highly fascist.

    Finally you have the out right racist parties like the BNP. They dont care how they are viewed and use inflammatory rhetoric to spread their views. Out with Muslims and so on. These are the neo nazi parties across Europe.

    Now members of both groups often overlap, and have so between the BNP and UKIP.

    No matter how you look at it, the similarities between the BNP and UKIP are striking. Both are xenophobic, blame foreigners for all the problems, and want to get rid of "non British" people.
    Is this supposed to be some kind of argument? It looks like a barely coherent rant, yet another absurd attempt at guilt by associations where the association doesn't really exist and massively PC inaccuracy and hyperbole based on left-liberal, universalist and EUrophile politics.

    What you are saying is conservative politics, an opposition to mass immigration and a respect for national sovereignty and identity are xenophobic and racist and in any measure simply a water-down version of fascism without showing any proof for these outrageous assertions. That these are common and common sense positions you do not take into account, that those who profess them can be very different and hostile to the far-right you do not even consider. It is just a case of massive hyperpartisan hackery.

    You have given zero amount of evidence or serious arguments to show that UKIP is a far-right nationalist group or linked the BNP. Pathetic.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 06-06-09 at 12:33 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #55
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    Pathetic. Not all right-wing parties are racist, and neither all racists parties are left wing. The Nazi party in Germany itself is for health care, liberal foreign policy, and public ownership of private property. Hardly conservative.

    Again, pathetic, as usual.
    Obviously not wanting mass immigration and having a respect for national sovereignty and identity is xenophobic and racist these days. In fact surely anyone who doesn't believe in world gov't and open borders is such, aren't they?
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  6. #56
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    No matter how you look at it, the similarities between the BNP and UKIP are striking. Both are xenophobic, blame foreigners for all the problems, and want to get rid of "non British" people.
    If i believed UKIP wanted to remove all 'non british' people, i'd be one of those arguing against them [for obvious reasons] but i have seen little proof for this. They want to restore Parliament's soverignty and start regulating immigration ... i agree with both of those.
    BNP has explicitly said they don't view non whites as british and wish to remove them


  7. #57
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    If i believed UKIP wanted to remove all 'non british' people, i'd be one of those arguing against them [for obvious reasons] but i have seen little proof for this. They want to restore Parliament's soverignty and start regulating immigration ... i agree with both of those.
    BNP has explicitly said they don't view non whites as british and wish to remove them
    Are you serious?

    Have they really said that openly?
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    Are you serious?

    Have they really said that openly?
    Indeed, if they won. Boy, am i in trouble :P

    BBC NEWS | Politics | BNP leader defends policy on race

    British National Party (BNP) chairman Nick Griffin has defended a party leaflet which says that black Britons and Asian Britons "do not exist".
    Only white people can be british according to Griffin.
    And they all talk about 'repatriation'


  9. #59
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Indeed, if they won. Boy, am i in trouble :P

    BBC NEWS | Politics | BNP leader defends policy on race

    Only white people can be british according to Griffin.
    And they all talk about 'repatriation'
    That is nuts. Does anyone actually vote for them?

    I can't believe people call the south racist and bigoted after seeing that.

    I tell yea what Laila, if they succeed you can come live here. We don't care what color or background you come from as long as you like the food.

    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    If i believed UKIP wanted to remove all 'non british' people, i'd be one of those arguing against them [for obvious reasons] but i have seen little proof for this. They want to restore Parliament's soverignty and start regulating immigration ... i agree with both of those.
    BNP has explicitly said they don't view non whites as british and wish to remove them
    are you mixing up legal and illegal immigration.

    As a British Subject, I married a Croatian national, do you think that that marriage gave her automatic residency?

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