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Thread: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

  1. #31
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    I've always believed that the solution is to stop voting in members of the bourgeoise or ruling class into parliament... but it seems like the candidates for voters are always industry owners or rich bureaucrats. There need to be more middle class members in Parliament. The rich are too disconnected from the needs of society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla
    Anytime someone creates a central governing authority, it slowly grabs more and more power. Over time the EU will be the central, powerful government and the separate nations will merely be states like the U.S. has.

    I never understand why people are so willing to give up their own sovereignty.
    There is no logical reason for it.
    The EU Parliament, in my view, is unlawful in the first place. It received mandate from the different governments in the EU, but the constituents of those governments had no say, no vote. Now they are expected to vote for members of this new government. Participation in it is already being coerced.

    People will vote because they are told to. Period. The average voter is not aware that their freedoms and prosperity are the way they are because it is written on a sheet of paper somewhere. They take for granted what they have. It is for this reason that the developed Western world has much more to lose than nations who are infant democracies or having civil unrest.

    Furthermore, people don't know what popular protest means anymore. The majority have to take to the streets or nothing is going to happen. Minorities are easily put down by riot squads and government thugs.

  2. #32
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I hate to say it but I suspect all the countries of Europe will loose their sovereignty soon enough.

    It reminds me of the Federalists vs. the Anti-Federalists in a way.
    I agree, even in Eurosceptic Britain . There are differences obviously; the nations are more unique than the states but on the other hand there is not that very cautious view towards centralisation and the usurpation of the power of the states by the central gov't that even many of the federalists shared.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 06-05-09 at 06:29 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  3. #33
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I hate to say it but I suspect all the countries of Europe will loose their sovereignty soon enough.

    It reminds me of the Federalists vs. the Anti-Federalists in a way.
    It's not just Europe. In North America, the governments of the U.S., Canada and Mexico formed the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America behind closed doors. There were massive protests and the protests got shut down. This agreement loosened border trade, allows "security" to be shared (including military crossing borders), and was completely undemocratic. Aside from the singular leaders of these countries, Congress, Canadian Parliament, and the Mexican cabinet did not have any vote on the matter.

    I swear... these people who sign these things into law must work for a higher organization. I know that sounds like conspiracy theory, but I can't figure out what goes on in their heads. It's like they are operating on an agenda completely separate from government.

  4. #34
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I agree, even in Eurosceptic Britain . There are differences obviously; the nations are more unique than the state but on the other hand there is not that very cautious idea towards centralisation and the usurpation of the power of the state by the central gov't that even many of the federalists shared.
    I'm pretty well convinced that it is the natural order of things.

    As long as democratic voting exists the cycle will continue.

    Centralization, fracturing, repeat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It's not just Europe. In North America, the governments of the U.S., Canada and Mexico formed the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America behind closed doors. There were massive protests and the protests got shut down. This agreement loosened border trade, allows "security" to be shared (including military crossing borders), and was completely undemocratic. Aside from the singular leaders of these countries, Congress, Canadian Parliament, and the Mexican cabinet did not have any vote on the matter.

    I swear... these people who sign these things into law must work for a higher organization. I know that sounds like conspiracy theory, but I can't figure out what goes on in their heads. It's like they are operating on an agenda completely separate from government.
    Money and power. Instead of one king, dictator or despot they share a higher order of power than the rest of the population.

    The two major parties in the U.S. are always at each others throats except when an outside force challenges their shared power.

    They then collude to push away that threat.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #35
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I'm pretty well convinced that it is the natural order of things.

    As long as democratic voting exists the cycle will continue.

    Centralization, fracturing, repeat.
    .
    Indeed, democracy of the representative kind(and the direct but that is a different story.) has a lot of dangers inherent in it.
    These need carefully off-setting which is something modern liberalism has little time for, combined with the neoliberalism and such Orius talks of then it is a great recipe for this kind of despotism and centralisation.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  6. #36
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Heard some rumors about the far-right gaining power in Europe.
    Is there any truth to this?
    It depends on the country.

    In the Netherlands the extreme right has a charismatic leader, so yes, they're gaining power.

    In France, Le Pen (extreme right) gets really old while Sarkozy (President) is already very right wing, so they're not gaining much power

    In Flanders, the extreme right is associated to a nationalist struggle (they want to be independent) and they have very efficient leaders, so they usually score quite high. But in Wallonia the extreme right leaders are fat morons so they're stuck at 2 or 3%


    I don't know for the other countries, but my point is that the scores of the extreme right depend heavily on the capacity of the party leaders, and thus there are big differences between countries

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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Sarkozy (President) is already very right wing
    I'll just say I disagree. He seems about as rightwing as David Cameron or even Blair, although I'm not a complete expert on him.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 06-05-09 at 06:51 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  8. #38
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It's not just Europe.
    Well obviously we've had the Bretton woods institutions for 60 years and they can't be discounted.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  9. #39
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    I'll just say I disagree. He seems about as rightwing as David Cameron or even Blair, although I'm not a complete expert on him.
    In most French medias he is seen as very right wing, that's why Le Pen got so few votes when Sarkozy was elected

  10. #40
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    Re: UK and Netherlands vote in EU election

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    In most French medias he is seen as very right wing, that's why Le Pen got so few votes when Sarkozy was elected
    He doesn't seem that way to me, particularly in how he has acted but I'm no expert.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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