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Thread: 20 Years after Tiananmen

  1. #41
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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt
    The thing about China is that they are nationalist, but largely belong to the same tribe. They most certainly can fix their own messes without embarking on global involving crisis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Not true.

    ......
    The post before you declared my description as "not true" you wrote...


    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    No other nation can change China but China.
    What's different?

    If it's the part about "nationalism," I believe I am correct. The Chinese, for the most part, are nationalists. They have not spent centuries receiving immigrants and there is not a great mixture of tribe within. They are very much of same roots and culture. This has nothing to do with how happy they are with their current state. Plenty of people are upset with their governments, yet they remain loyal to country.

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  2. #42
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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Saboteur View Post
    Thank you, very interesting, I always enjoy your rationality. So in the cold war did the U.S. support an opposing tribe while Afghanistan was at war with Russia? Is that why Osama Bin Laden declared war on the U.S.?

    Afghanistan's tribes were organized thusly. Some worked together and some worked seperately. We used them and they used us to reach the same means. Even though Bin Laden's educational roots tie him to Qutb and he always saw the American culture as an offense to Islam, he allowed himself the use of the American powers against the Russians. But he wouldn't "declare" war on America until the was embarrassed and denies his hero status when the Sauds accepted Western powers to "defend the holy land" against Saddam Hussein. A base in Saudi Arabia and other such things were mere excuses. For example.....

    * He cared about the "starving children of Iraq," yet looked away when Bashir, his fellow Sunni Arab, slaughtered Muslims while he was a guest in Sudan?

    * He is angered over an "American base in the holy land," so he targets two embassies in Africa?

    * He dubbed us as the "great oppressor of Muslim people," even though the Soviet Union oppressed tens of millions of Muslims in the Caucusus while the freest of Muslims lived in the U.S.?

    * No mention of the tens of thousands of Muslims saved in the Bosnia affair, millions of Muslims saved in Kuwait, and the hundreds of millions of Muslims across the region that would have suffered the same fate as Muslims in the Caucusus had the Soviet Union won influence in the desert?


    America, thanks to Qutb, is the "chosen" enemy. No matter what our government had done during the Cold War, none of it comes even close to what the Europeans powers did to the tribes nor what the Soviet Union did. Yet, we are the "enemy of God." It's all BS. And it all goes back to tribe. Bin Laden's allegiance is to tribe...not to God. He didn't care about starving Iraqis. He only cared about starving Sunni Arabs because had he truly cared, he would have cared about Bashir (Sunni) and his slaughtering of Muslims in Sudan. Had he truly cared about the oppression of Muslims, he wouldn't have found comfort with the Tali-Ban (Sunni base) and his real grievance would be how horrible the Shia are treated in Saudi Arabia.

    For Bin Laden, it is all about tribe and vanity.
    Last edited by MSgt; 06-09-09 at 02:17 AM.

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  3. #43
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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    The post before you declared my description as "not true" you wrote...




    What's different?

    If it's the part about "nationalism," I believe I am correct. The Chinese, for the most part, are nationalists. They have not spent centuries receiving immigrants and there is not a great mixture of tribe within. They are very much of same roots and culture. This has nothing to do with how happy they are with their current state. Plenty of people are upset with their governments, yet they remain loyal to country.
    There are 52 ethnic "minorities" within China, some of whom are actively rebelling against the government. The Eastern Han are the ethnic majority and so they are the ones that tend to dominate. Western China is a source of a lot of rebellion, government-centered terrorism, and distrust. The Eastern Han are solving this with gradual colonization of the Western regions. These ethnic groups do not share the same roots. Xinjiang, for example, is filled with Ugyrs whose ethnicity is middle Eastern (like the other -stans). They aren't even asiatic looking and their written script is Arabic script.

    As for China not threatening the outside... China doesn't get involved in active wars and imperialism like the U.S. does, but it relies on economic domination for control. It has had a profound effect on African oil nations. The Han Chinese don't give a toss about strife in Africa, or what it means to be funding dictatorships, as long as they get their oil.

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Agreed with Orius. Han Chinese imperialism needs to be spread within before it can be spread outside. In fact, I heard there are Government-sponsored campaigns to get people moving into Tibet and Xinjiang, offering them new jobs, more land and the such to do so.

    Han imperialism on the Western regions has been going on for centuries, some dynasties more successful than others, but it's only been in the last 50 years that has it been near anything successful. The first thing the Communist Government institutated was the forced adoption of all schools of the Mandarin language, this has been largely successful, now that communications is up and running, the Han are now sending their troops in to colonise the place.

    I guess the next step after colonisation is eradication, probably by state-sponsored campaigns to promote inter-marriage and interbreeding. After which, local knowledge of the native language and script will slowly fade away.

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    They won't eradicate them. They still need minority zoos to serve as tourist cash cows. What will happen is, the Han will develop infrastructure surrounding their own culture while "rennovating" a.k.a tearing down the old cities. Once the developments are complete, the minorities will still have their lives, but in small sections dedicated to tourism and oogling.

    Domestic tourists will look at them and feel proud, thinking, "Look, we didn't destroy them, we gave them prosperity! Just look at how well they're doing!" It's the same excuse used in Tibet... that they ended serfdom and feudal order and gave them "progress".

  6. #46
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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Sounds like the whole Israel/Palestinian conflict thingy except milder and all interior.
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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    There are 52 ethnic "minorities" within China, some of whom are actively rebelling against the government.
    Even with this, Asia didn't see the historical immigration that the West saw and continues to see. Obviously, I am limited to what I know about internal China. But what I do know is that the Chinese government looks to squash decention because of the extremism in its history. This is unfortunate because while it seeks to ensure "stability" and order, it also squashes positive change. These "rebels" aren't just fighting against the current government. They are fighting against their countries history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    The Han Chinese don't give a toss about strife in Africa, or what it means to be funding dictatorships, as long as they get their oil.
    Well, isn't that all of us? Even America had strayed from its values and morality when it came to diplomacy and the resources that make nations powerful. It is very easy to look away as the business partner abuses his own population as long as the oil flows. America looks away from China just to ensure that international business flourishes. And the only difference between the Chinese populations and the Middle Eastern populations in regards to this sentiment, is that the Chinese population isn't trying to blame America for prescribing local culture.

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