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Thread: 20 Years after Tiananmen

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Oops. Sorry mate.
    Oh, no worries. If only I understand a joke, it must not be that good.

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Saboteur View Post
    Well America is the defender of democracy right?

    But we don't have to invade. We could crush them economically. We have the technology and the unemployed work force to do it too. But a few CEO's might have to get paid less. So not an option I suppose.
    And maybe some union workers, especially auto workers, need to get paid less. Just see how Toyota and Nissan are kicking our butts on our own soil with their seemingly content, American workforce.

    We are so far away from having the ability to crush China economically that it's a joke to suggest that we could do so. This is partially due to (a) the high price of labor due to ridiculous union representation (in many cases), (b) the radical elements of the environmental lobby in the US whose goal is more to shut down the American economy than promote environmentalism, and (c) a legal system that supports excessive litigation and often unjust awards from lawsuits. Comparing these 3 items in China: (a) China's people most often are used as underpaid slave labor, (b) China doesn't giva a rat's ass about the environment, and (c) What would a legitimate lawsuit consist of in China, assuming that there is a mechanism to launch one? Those 3 items tend to support a work force that can produce one hell of a lot of stuff, even if much of it is of low quality, tainted with lead paint and other poisons!
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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    What does "why we are there" have anything to do with what I quoted you on?

    But thank you again for continuing to bolster my point.
    I apologize, I don't mean to say the U.S. is at fault. I just wish that the polarization between parties in the U.S. would end and we'd all get on the same page. I would like for the people of China to be free from communism or at least the brutal communist regime they have now. And I know it's up to the people of China to do that for themselves but in '89 they wanted help and they didn't get it.

    20 years later they still want a better life and I'm sad for them. And I'm still pissed that Iraq invaded Kuwait and the U.S. went into action immediately.
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    Our role in Iraq is done. It is for them to progress or fail, which was always the case.

    And it doesn't matter what we do in the 21st century, because we will be facing militias and insurgents. No why? Because in the post-Cold War, we ignorantly found out that being a friend towards a government meant being an enemy to opposite tribes underneath. When Yugoslavia fell apart, we had to choose amongst tribes. When we supported Hussein against Iran, we had in fact befriended the Sunni Arab tribe while casting out the Shia and Kurdish tribe as he waged war and slaughtered them. People don't stop to think or even really investigate what is going on inside Saudi Arabia. We are friends with the government, which means that the numerous non-Arab tribes they oppress and treat as trash see as a sort of enemy. But were their oppressive tribes in charge would they not also gain our favor? Iraq is a prime example. We rid Iraq of the Sunni leadership and show them democracy. To the shock and dismay of the Sunni, the Shia are the majority, which is not in the Sunni's interest as a tribe. The militias and insurgents were absolutely aligned in accordance to tribal allegiance.

    It's never been as simple as people think when they accuse America of being hated by these people because we simply befriend oppressive governments. It has always been about the tribe. And no matter the tribe, oppression and brutality is the culture, which means that we will "befriend" these traits against other tribes within the borders.

    This is the greatest reason I am a firm believer that we have to engage these nations on the diplomatic level and go beyond the superficial governing tribe. We are in an age of breakdown. Where European colonial border drawings forced tribes, who had spent centuries loving each other, to live apart, and forced tribes, who have hated each other for centuries, to live together. Without the Cold War "parents" of Moscow and Washington, the controlling tribes are being challenged more and more by the other tribes. Yugoslavia divided into tribes. Somalia has a "Somaliland." Sudan has a Darfur. Iraq has a "Kurdistan," which bleeds into some of Turkey. Iraq should actually be three different nations. But in the end, the maps still reveal internationally recognized unnatural borders. The entire Middle East is mishapen and it needs to sort itself out one way or another.

    We have an obligation in the West. With Europe's coloinial period, which created this mess, behind them and America and Russia's Cold War, which maintained the mess for "stability," behind them.....we have to start helping the tribes foind their long lost identities as painlessly as possible while at the same time dealing with the twisted imported feelings of the governments. Keep in mind, the tribes are lashing out from two perspectives now...(1) tribal identity and (2) nationalism. We have the luxury of only being naitonalists in the West. Imagine trying to be loyal to tribe and "their" country against other tribes who are also loyal to tribe and what they consider "their" country.

    The thing about China is that they are nationalist, but largely belong to the same tribe. They most certainly can fix their own messes without embarking on global involving crisis.
    Thank you, very interesting, I always enjoy your rationality. So in the cold war did the U.S. support an opposing tribe while Afghanistan was at war with Russia? Is that why Osama Bin Laden declared war on the U.S.?
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by rebelbuc View Post
    And maybe some union workers, especially auto workers, need to get paid less. Just see how Toyota and Nissan are kicking our butts on our own soil with their seemingly content, American workforce.
    Back in the early '90s I heard of a Japanese auto company that bonused every single American employee they had right down to the guy who swept up at night. The least of such bonuses was $30,000.00. I saw this on the news, they interviewed a line worker and asked if he would quit after getting $76,000.00. His answer was that he would work for the company for the rest of his life.

    We are so far away from having the ability to crush China economically that it's a joke to suggest that we could do so. This is partially due to (a) the high price of labor due to ridiculous union representation (in many cases),
    Actually I think it's inflation, but I see your point. I am not a union supporter.

    (b) the radical elements of the environmental lobby in the US whose goal is more to shut down the American economy than promote environmentalism,
    You mean those folks who supported E85 gasoline which we have yet to see at the pump? Seriously what's up with that,did it get scrapped or is it in rural areas only?

    Anyway, the environment is the technology and jobs I'm talking about.

    and (c) a legal system that supports excessive litigation and often unjust awards from lawsuits.
    You mean the kind that Michael "Savage" Weiner uses to file lawsuits against foreign countries?

    Comparing these 3 items in China: (a) China's people most often are used as underpaid slave labor, (b) China doesn't giva a rat's ass about the environment, and (c) What would a legitimate lawsuit consist of in China, assuming that there is a mechanism to launch one? Those 3 items tend to support a work force that can produce one hell of a lot of stuff, even if much of it is of low quality, tainted with lead paint and other poisons!
    The slave labor is why we pull the jobs we sent over there back to us, the environmental technology we use to manufacture our products to sell to other countries takes money away from them and I don't understand why you would want to have a legal system like China's.
    Last edited by Saboteur; 06-04-09 at 05:08 PM.
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    I live in China. The majority of people here are not happy. They are not reaping the benefits of recent prosperity and modernization. The government continues to push on with innovations that keeps them appearing to be providers, but due to corruption, greed, and infighting, I think this line will be crossed eventually. Corruption is a fact of life here.

    No other nation can change China but China. Revolutions and changes in government have always come from the inside. Look at any of the historical dynasties and this is the case. The Communists are just the modern "emperors" who are enjoying their absolutely control, for now. But like all dynasties from imperial China, they will not last. Modernization moves forward and they are its status quo. People will make their demands eventually. The rest of the world just has to be patient.

    I for one think it is a mark of high dishonour that the government is suppressing memorial of what happened in 1989. They want to cover up their own mistake so badly that they are suppressing all dialogue about it. It's this type of strategy that will lead to long term social decay which will in turn lead to uprising. The peoples grievances MUST be heard eventually.

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    So we should invade China?
    Yes. With aircraft that drop nothing but words of encouragement and truth. Too bad our American name is sullied enough to make it hard to stand up to China in good light now days.

    They did it before and we stood and watched. We do it to our own but we use gas and tasers. So there is no death, usually but the mechanism still managed to bring silence.

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    I would like for the people of China to be free from communism or at least the brutal communist regime they have now.
    Please see this post as to why China is not communist.

    And I know it's up to the people of China to do that for themselves but in '89 they wanted help and they didn't get it.
    The Tienanmen movement was a mash up of various different ideological trends and groups with different goals, from pro-capitalists to labour leaders to communists protesting the lack of democracy and accountability in the party. It was not simply an anti-communist movement as it is commonly portrayed in the west.

    So we should invade China?
    Yes. With aircraft that drop nothing but words of encouragement and truth.
    This is one of the most awesome statements I've read on this forum.

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    The thing about China is that they are nationalist, but largely belong to the same tribe. They most certainly can fix their own messes without embarking on global involving crisis.
    Not true.

    ......

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Sorry to pick just one little thing and comment on it, but this has been bothering me awhile. I keep hearing this sentiment, and it sounds true....then I remember that when I was a kid, we fully expected a large scale ground war if we did not blow up the world with nukes. The world changes too fast, and the military has to struggle to keep up. I don't think we can really say for sure yet what the wars of even a decade from now will be like.

    Oh I am absolutely definate that we can to a certain degree. I believe you can to. I'll explain.....

    Before the Cold War ended, we lived in a comfortable and predictable environment. We knew who our enemy was and he existed under a distinct banner and a uniform. Our CIA had spent decades honing its skills quite well because, for the most part, they only focused on the big red adversary. We had the comfort knowing that no matter where we deployed our military or dealt with threats of war, communism's influence was the usual enemy. We can think of Beirut as an exception when we consider Korea, Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, and Afghanistan.

    But consider every place an American boot has touched the ground since the Berlin Wall came down. - Kuwait, Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Iraq. Like the Cold War, there is a common theme here. But instead of a clear ideology being that theme, we are dealing with tribes seeking independance from false governments put in place by Europeans and maintained by American/Soviet powers. Our CIA became quickly powerless to deal with the sudden lack of an easily identifiable enemy and our military was sent from one crisis after another, ill equiped and under trained for missions they had never been prepared for.

    A second theme is religion. But even this leads us to tribe. During the Cold War we had the luxury of ignoring religious extremism even when it touched our deployed military (Beirut). And even though Communism has been called the "godless religion" by some, the true religious fanatic is a far more dangerous adversary. He is the greatest bull ****ter on earth. Even though he may claim an earthly agenda or a divine right to destroy and murder, he is still adhering to tribal grievance. Hezbollah is Shia. Al-Queda chose Bashir (Sunni) as a host and then migrated to the Tali-Ban (Sunni). (Bin Laden gave himself away by choosing the "starving children of Iraq" as an excuse for 9/11, even though he did nothing about the slaughtered non-Arab Sunni children in Sudan while he was a guest of Bashir.)

    We also know that poverty and ignorance is where we will most find regligious fanaticism and a strengthened tribal loyalty. This leads us directly to the economically weak third world tribes shattered by the realizations of freedom and their increasingly free flowing information. This current enemy even has China concerned about Xinjiang and Russia has Chechnya. This makes our enemy a common global enemy. And the heart of this enemy is the Middle East with the HOA (Horn of Africa) and parts of Asia acting as arms.

    Whether we deal with pirates from Somalia, religious freaks in Afghanistan, dictator loyalists in Iraq, or organized international thugs, we are dealing with tribal mentality that stems from poverty and failure...and no government claims any of these groups. Saddam Hussein was a member of a dying breed. The dictator, also a comfortable enemy, is seeing the end of days in this world. In their place are the tribes and their off shoot twisted organizations. Therefore, we only need to look at these locations where religious fanaticism is worsening to discover where our future conflicts are going to be. Especially if they affect international trades, our allies' borders, and mass violent organizations.

    Our future is very much in the Middle East and the HOA and our enemy is going to be the armed thug, militant, and insurgent who merely clings to his tribe's pride. And this is why I have been "preaching" about tribes in today's world for years as being what has to start being our focus.

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