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Thread: 20 Years after Tiananmen

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Saboteur View Post
    What's a centrist anyway?
    I'd bet it's somewhere in the middle between left and right.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    And it's way more amazing when those certain people declare themselves as "Moderates"

    Quote Originally Posted by Saboteur View Post
    What's a centrist anyway?
    Never mind,

    Positions — The Centrist Party

    Security

    "To be a beacon of freedom and democracy we must practice and enforce the protection of these ideals at home and abroad. Enhance state department communications capacity. Recognize actions have short and long term consequences. Support and empower the military rather than outsource. Commit to conflict only when justified by fact of established threat, required action, not agenda. We should not be afraid to draw the sword, nor to sheath it. Once committed, attend to pentagon protocols for success in-theater including manpower and equipment."
    “We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
    ― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    In other words, no matter what we do -- or, as it happens, don't do -- it's always wrong.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    I'd bet it's somewhere in the middle between left and right.
    I thought it was somebody who did not pick sides.

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Saboteur View Post
    In 1989, the U.S. could have done something about Tiananmen and the massacre.
    You would suggest we had done what?

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I thought it was somebody who did not pick sides.
    No, it is the center between the left and right political wings.
    In politics, centrism usually refers to the political idea of promoting moderate policies which land in the middle between different political extremes. Most commonly, this is visualized as part of the one-dimensional political spectrum of left-right politics, with centrism landing in the middle between left-wing politics and right-wing politics.
    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism]Centrism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    No, it is the center between the left and right political wings.
    Centrism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And another joke that only I found amusing.

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Saboteur View Post
    It's not just about the oil. It's about the fact that Iraq didn't have any defense and the Bush admin knew it. Who is the current enemy in Iraq? Factions of insurgents that's who. We are not fighting a military, we're fighting militia. The same type of people who would organize and fight if the U.S. was ever invaded.
    Our role in Iraq is done. It is for them to progress or fail, which was always the case.

    And it doesn't matter what we do in the 21st century, because we will be facing militias and insurgents. No why? Because in the post-Cold War, we ignorantly found out that being a friend towards a government meant being an enemy to opposite tribes underneath. When Yugoslavia fell apart, we had to choose amongst tribes. When we supported Hussein against Iran, we had in fact befriended the Sunni Arab tribe while casting out the Shia and Kurdish tribe as he waged war and slaughtered them. People don't stop to think or even really investigate what is going on inside Saudi Arabia. We are friends with the government, which means that the numerous non-Arab tribes they oppress and treat as trash see as a sort of enemy. But were their oppressive tribes in charge would they not also gain our favor? Iraq is a prime example. We rid Iraq of the Sunni leadership and show them democracy. To the shock and dismay of the Sunni, the Shia are the majority, which is not in the Sunni's interest as a tribe. The militias and insurgents were absolutely aligned in accordance to tribal allegiance.

    It's never been as simple as people think when they accuse America of being hated by these people because we simply befriend oppressive governments. It has always been about the tribe. And no matter the tribe, oppression and brutality is the culture, which means that we will "befriend" these traits against other tribes within the borders.

    This is the greatest reason I am a firm believer that we have to engage these nations on the diplomatic level and go beyond the superficial governing tribe. We are in an age of breakdown. Where European colonial border drawings forced tribes, who had spent centuries loving each other, to live apart, and forced tribes, who have hated each other for centuries, to live together. Without the Cold War "parents" of Moscow and Washington, the controlling tribes are being challenged more and more by the other tribes. Yugoslavia divided into tribes. Somalia has a "Somaliland." Sudan has a Darfur. Iraq has a "Kurdistan," which bleeds into some of Turkey. Iraq should actually be three different nations. But in the end, the maps still reveal internationally recognized unnatural borders. The entire Middle East is mishapen and it needs to sort itself out one way or another.

    We have an obligation in the West. With Europe's coloinial period, which created this mess, behind them and America and Russia's Cold War, which maintained the mess for "stability," behind them.....we have to start helping the tribes foind their long lost identities as painlessly as possible while at the same time dealing with the twisted imported feelings of the governments. Keep in mind, the tribes are lashing out from two perspectives now...(1) tribal identity and (2) nationalism. We have the luxury of only being naitonalists in the West. Imagine trying to be loyal to tribe and "their" country against other tribes who are also loyal to tribe and what they consider "their" country.

    The thing about China is that they are nationalist, but largely belong to the same tribe. They most certainly can fix their own messes without embarking on global involving crisis.
    Last edited by MSgt; 06-04-09 at 04:20 PM.

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    And another joke that only I found amusing.
    Oops. Sorry mate.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: 20 Years after Tiananmen

    Quote Originally Posted by GySgt View Post
    And it doesn't matter what we do in the 21st century, because we will be facing militias and insurgents.
    Sorry to pick just one little thing and comment on it, but this has been bothering me awhile. I keep hearing this sentiment, and it sounds true....then I remember that when I was a kid, we fully expected a large scale ground war if we did not blow up the world with nukes. The world changes too fast, and the military has to struggle to keep up. I don't think we can really say for sure yet what the wars of even a decade from now will be like.

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