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Thread: North Korea names Kims successor

  1. #41
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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    Yeah, that's great. Unfortunately, all the ranting in the world doesn't constitute an argument and doesn't affect the reality that no semblance of "socialism" was present in the USSR, let alone "communism," for reasons explained above.
    Go live under a communism then? True what Triad said. Your no communist, go China, live under it, your nothing if you formulated all of this from some SAT book.

    A market should be competitive and there should be effective monopolies and oligopolies in these markets. Communism just creates whatever the government gives the hands up to, and then tells them how much to create. A free market is far more effective at achieving economic growth and providing consumers with abundant goods in the market and good competitive prices. This is evident in Vietnam, and in Eastern Europe. Communism has a history of economic flaws and problems.

    Much rather live under freedom and democracy anyway. Can we get back onto the topic by any chance?
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Go live under a communism then? True what Triad said. Your no communist, go China, live under it, your nothing if you formulated all of this from some SAT book.
    No one that I know of describes China as a communist country. It would be a stretch even to describe them as a technocratic market socialist country, IMO. China remains state capitalist at its core, and though market development is certainly a component of recent overall economic development, said markets are ultimately ruled over by state bureaucrats rather than the public.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    A market should be competitive and there should be effective monopolies and oligopolies in these markets.
    You do realize that this is self-contradictory, don't you? The presence of monopolies and oligopolies itself inhibits market concentration, which is why the legitimate market advocate will oppose unrestrained capitalism and take steps to reduce wealth and market concentration. Perhaps you should engage in more thorough study of these terms before using them.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Communism just creates whatever the government gives the hands up to, and then tells them how much to create. A free market is far more effective at achieving economic growth and providing consumers with abundant goods in the market and good competitive prices. This is evident in Vietnam, and in Eastern Europe. Communism has a history of economic flaws and problems.
    You wouldn't happen to be a bot, would you? Several arguments have just been presented to the effect that authoritarian state capitalism does not legitimately constitute even socialism (let alone communism!), and that free markets did not have a role in American economic development; rather, protectionism did. If you wish to maintain these positions, it is incumbent upon you to respond to the arguments against them rather than repeat them without consideration of opposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Much rather live under freedom and democracy anyway.
    Then you should strongly oppose capitalism, as it spawns thoroughly authoritarian and anti-democratic social orders and hierarchies.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Can we get back onto the topic by any chance?
    Inappropriate conflation of state capitalism and socialism is highly relevant to the topic of North Korean internal politics.

  3. #43
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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    No one that I know of describes China as a communist country. It would be a stretch even to describe them as a technocratic market socialist country, IMO. China remains state capitalist at its core, and though market development is certainly a component of recent overall economic development, said markets are ultimately ruled over by state bureaucrats rather than the public.



    You do realize that this is self-contradictory, don't you? The presence of monopolies and oligopolies itself inhibits market concentration, which is why the legitimate market advocate will oppose unrestrained capitalism and take steps to reduce wealth and market concentration. Perhaps you should engage in more thorough study of these terms before using them.



    You wouldn't happen to be a bot, would you? Several arguments have just been presented to the effect that authoritarian state capitalism does not legitimately constitute even socialism (let alone communism!), and that free markets did not have a role in American economic development; rather, protectionism did. If you wish to maintain these positions, it is incumbent upon you to respond to the arguments against them rather than repeat them without consideration of opposition.



    Then you should strongly oppose capitalism, as it spawns thoroughly authoritarian and anti-democratic social orders and hierarchies.
    Get back on topic or shut up, thanks. Im not going to bother arguing economics with a communist, because naturally i wont get anywhere if i do.


    Inappropriate conflation of state capitalism and socialism is highly relevant to the topic of North Korean internal politics.
    We are talking about Kims successor not the economic or social structure of NK's economy or any other internal political discussion but Kims successor.
    "If religious instruction were not allowed until the child had attained the age of reason, we would be living in quite a different world" - Christopher Hitchens
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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    Get back on topic or shut up, thanks. Im not going to bother arguing economics with a communist, because naturally i wont get anywhere if i do.
    You certainly won't. In fact, you've practically gone backwards already.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    We are talking about Kims successor not the economic or social structure of NK's economy or any other internal political discussion but Kims successor.
    This seems far less a derailment than your comment of "[t]hat would explain your barbaric view on policy reform for age restrictions on sex."

  5. #45
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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Make it real simple for the communist wannabe's and 70's era soviet propaganda speakers..
    I know/have known many people who have lived under former and existing Communist states.
    You guys can quote trotsky, lenin, stalin,thaelmann, mao, some twit who wants to be Marx..whoever.

    My own life experiences with Communism in the real world coupled with the real life experiences of people who have actually lived under categorically and completely trumps you all.

    Easy being a "32 flavors basement communist" or whatever we are today while residing in and having obvious no intention of giving up the freedoms and lifestyles you enjoy.

    So set on a a scale
    Real life experience with communism... not as a damn tourist
    VS
    Idealized classroom/booklore based experience

    Yeah..really..whatever...
    A state controlled by a party that calls itself communist doesn't really mean anything, by the way. Sort of like the "Congo Free State," which obviously wasn't that free.

    The W.P.K. (Workers Party of Korea) aka the current party running North Korea and heade dby Kim Il-jung. IS the Communist Party.
    Actually no it is not; they do not call themselves such nor do they act as such.

    North Korean propaganda had played up the Juche ("Self Reliance") routine in order to pretend it is a homegrown ideology as well as part of an idolatry campaign initiated by Kim Il-Sung and since continued by his son Kim Il-Jung.
    Exactly. Juche is a neo-Confucian ideology developed by Il Sung from Marxism-Leninism, but is a clear and decisive break with Marxism-Leninism. This is why they consider themselves Jucheists and not Marxist-Leninists, and why they have removed all references to Marxism-Leninism from their governmental policies and documents.

    You've just put another nail into your own coffin.

    Yeah, that's great. Unfortunately, all the ranting in the world doesn't constitute an argument and doesn't affect the reality that no semblance of "socialism" was present in the USSR, let alone "communism," for reasons explained above.


    Go live under a communism then? True what Triad said. Your no communist, go China, live under it, your nothing if you formulated all of this from some SAT book.
    Let me quote an older post of mine from here demolishing the idea that China is anything but capitalist:

    China is for all intents and purposes capitalist; the only thing communist about it is that the ruling party has the word in their name, and that the country is still named a "people's republic". Capitalist property relations were restored by Xiaoping and his supporters in the 70's, and ever since those floodgates were opened the private sector has been growing at a record rate.

    The share of state-owned enterprises (SOEs) and state-invested enterprises (SIEs) in the national industrial value-added, which was as high as 72 per cent in 1998, came down to 47.8 per cent in 2003 and further to 45 per cent in 2005. The share of pure private domestic and foreign enterprises (not including collectively-owned ones) was about 50 per cent in 2003. In the marketplaces, the controlled economy now accounts for only 3 per cent of the retail market, down from about 98 per cent in 1978.
    -Bhaumik, T.K. Old China's New Economy: The Conquest By A Billion Paupers, p.117
    Keep in mind that these numbers stop at 2005; since then there has been even further privatisation.

    It should also be noted that the SOEs are mostly located in the primary sector, and in particular industries that are crucial to the country (natural resources is a big one, for example). The primary sector has also recently been steadily declining since the 80's (in terms of % share of GDP), with the tertiary sector increasing at pretty much the same rate. This is, of course, due to the massive inflow of foreign capital and the transformation of China into "the world's workshop".

    SOEs are also run basically in the same way as private enterprises, with the only real difference being their source of capital investment. I unfortunately do not currently have much information on this right now, though, but this is unnecessary, as it is a secondary point. I think the claim that "China's economy is all state run" has been completely disproven.

    There is absolutely no evidence that the National Bureau of statistics is fabricating their GDP. In fact, what has been reported since the reform of the Xiaoping era actually supports the fact that these numbers are accurate. For example, it would make no sense for them to report the massive fluctuations in GDP that were reported from about 1985 to 1992, and would have made much more sense for them to report steadier numbers. This alone tells me that they are on the whole accurate.

    Economies don't have "virtues." Moreover, the fact that you see these issues in "third world" countries that are capitalist (China included, as proven above) disproves your claim.
    A market should be competitive and there should be effective monopolies and oligopolies in these markets.
    Why is that? Because you say so?

    A free market is far more effective at achieving economic growth and providing consumers with abundant goods in the market and good competitive prices.
    This is definitely debatable. Numerous controlled economies have achieved profound success, one example being that of the Soviet economy during the Stalin era. These command economies, however, have historically developed to such a point where they begin to stagnate, but that is mostly due to political and bureaucratic issues than any fundamental problem with the economy itself.

    No one that I know of describes China as a communist country. It would be a stretch even to describe them as a technocratic market socialist country, IMO.
    There are organizations, unfortunately, that consider China to still be socialist; however, they are obviously on the extreme fringe. Freedom Road Socialist Organization (frso.org) is one that I can think of off the top of my head.

    The CWI (who I am aligned with, but wouldn't join because of their pettiness) also considers China to be "not yet capitalist," whatever that means. But that's just because the International Secretariat is full of a bunch of old farts that abhor change, which kind of flies in the face of their belief in dialectics.

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    Actually the country is ruled by the Workers' Party of Korea, not a Communist Party, and its guiding ideology is Juche, not Marxism-Leninism.



    Same sht, new pile.



    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche]Juche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    See relationship to communism.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Same sht, new pile.



    Juche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Juche Juche

    See relationship to communism.
    "Exactly. Juche is a neo-Confucian ideology developed by Il Sung from Marxism-Leninism, but is a clear and decisive break with Marxism-Leninism. This is why they consider themselves Jucheists and not Marxist-Leninists, and why they have removed all references to Marxism-Leninism from their governmental policies and documents.

    You've just put another nail into your own coffin."

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    There's no intelligent distinction made by those willing to conflate even libertarian socialism with state capitalism.

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    "Exactly. Juche is a neo-Confucian ideology developed by Il Sung from Marxism-Leninism, but is a clear and decisive break with Marxism-Leninism. This is why they consider themselves Jucheists and not Marxist-Leninists, and why they have removed all references to Marxism-Leninism from their governmental policies and documents.

    You've just put another nail into your own coffin."



    So what are the fundemental differences?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  10. #50
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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    So what are the fundemental differences?
    Is there some reason I should not expect you to troll or tell me I'm wrong if I respond to this question?


    As to the OP:

    Some analysts have urged caution, noting that in the absence of much verifiable information coming out of North Korea, there is a wealth of speculation and rumour.

    "We had rumours in September, October that it will be Chang Song-taek, Kim Jong-il's brother-in-law, then briefly there were rumours about his second son, then stories about his third son," Andrei Lankov of the Australian National University in Seoul told our correspondent.

    "Every few months we have a new wave of rumours."

    BBC

    There's absolutely no basis for this rumor, and this thread should be moved from breaking news, as it is not news but completely unsubstantiated speculation.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 06-03-09 at 10:53 AM.

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