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Thread: North Korea names Kims successor

  1. #31
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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by Agnapostate View Post
    My focus is primarily on economic efficiency, and the beneficial effects that libertarian socialism would have on such.
    Ah, but economic efficiency is political efficiency. You really can't separate the two. Any way you slice it, it's about how power and influence get divvied up.

    Any set of rules is a set of rules, particularly if there's a penalty involved for not following them.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    So now your ignoring the main reason for Americas economic superiority: its free market and the success it has enjoyed from it, and pinning its economic success soley on protectionist policies?
    As has just been noted, this is a utopian fantasy. You'll want to consult the historical record to discover the majestic reality of the free market's lack of existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaya'08 View Post
    I suppose communism in infinetly more successful "historically".
    Hmmm...in some respects, I suppose. I typically refer to the horizontal federations of anarchist collectives established during the Spanish Revolution to illustrate the superiority of libertarian communism. As noted by Gaston Leval:

    In Spain, during almost three years, despite a civil war that took a million lives, despite the opposition of the political parties . . . this idea of libertarian communism was put into effect. Very quickly more than 60% of the land was very quickly collectively cultivated by the peasants themselves, without landlords, without bosses, and without instituting capitalist competition to spur production. In almost all the industries, factories, mills, workshops, transportation services, public services, and utilities, the rank and file workers, their revolutionary committees, and their syndicates reorganised and administered production, distribution, and public services without capitalists, high-salaried managers, or the authority of the state.

    Even more: the various agrarian and industrial collectives immediately instituted economic equality in accordance with the essential principle of communism, 'From each according to his ability and to each according to his needs.' They co-ordinated their efforts through free association in whole regions, created new wealth, increased production (especially in agriculture), built more schools, and bettered public services. They instituted not bourgeois formal democracy but genuine grass roots functional libertarian democracy, where each individual participated directly in the revolutionary reorganisation of social life. They replaced the war between men, 'survival of the fittest,' by the universal practice of mutual aid, and replaced rivalry by the principle of solidarity.
    Is that an acceptable source?

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Ah, but economic efficiency is political efficiency. You really can't separate the two. Any way you slice it, it's about how power and influence get divvied up.
    As a consistent socialist, I of course agree, but others seem not to, so I found it necessary to clarify.

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Always get a kick out of the Communists denying Communist nations are Communist.

    Reality of the ideology on Earth doesn't tend to fly amongst Free Peoples. So its advocates have to deny what they are advocating.

    //

    Anyway enough of the wannabe's..

    This replacement for Kim has been suspected as likely for a few years now. Its become necessary now to validate by the North Koreans because of Kim's health. He almost died from what info came out..without a party designated leader.

    Kim Jong-un will be as big a SOB as his grandfather and father. Don't even have to wonder that. .

    Another potential alarming possibility to this announcement is Kim is going to take actions that require a named replacement. IOW attack South Korea

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Always get a kick out of the Communists denying Communist nations are Communist.
    1. And you're the authority on the subject because...
    2. The DPRK doesn't even consider themself "Communist". They have no Communist Party, and adhere to the neo-Confucian ideology of Juche, not Marxism-Leninism.

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    Always get a kick out of the Communists denying Communist nations are Communist.
    That represents your own misapplication of political economy on several levels. Firstly, even the state capitalists who falsely claim that the nation-states that adopted their ideology are socialist in nature would not claim that they were "communist," because such individuals are usually self-professed Marxists of some variety and thus adopt the doctrine of the transitional worker's state, thereby causing them to acknowledge only a moneyless, marketless, stateless society as "communist" in nature. Secondly, the state capitalist USSR and similarly authoritarian states did not muster socialism because socialism necessitates the collective ownership and management of the means of production. The state of affairs present in the Soviet Union involved elite party control and management of the means of production, not any element of legitimate public "ownership." This was a reality acknowledged by legitimate socialists in the Soviet Union, such as the anarcho-communist Peter Kropotkin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    Reality of the ideology on Earth doesn't tend to fly amongst Free Peoples. So its advocates have to deny what they are advocating.
    That's laughably fallacious. The participatory elements of socialism in general ensure legitimate self-governance through the extension of democracy into the economic realm. As an anarcho-communist, I'm especially able to represent this reality. For instance, consider this statement by the aforementioned Kropotkin.

    Anarchism, the no-government system of socialism, has a double origin. It is an outgrowth of the two great movements of thought in the economic and the political fields which characterize the nineteenth century, and especially its second part. In common with all socialists, the anarchists hold that the private ownership of land, capital, and machinery has had its time; that it is condemned to disappear; and that all requisites for production must, and will, become the common property of society, and be managed in common by the producers of wealth. And in common with the most advanced representatives of political radicalism, they maintain that the ideal of the political organization of society is a condition of things where the functions of government are reduced to a minimum, and the individual recovers his full liberty of initiative and action for satisfying, by means of free groups and federations--freely constituted--all the infinitely varied needs of the human being.
    Conversely, capitalism involves the establishment of authoritarian social relationships in the workplace and wider society as a result of elite private control of the means of production, a state of affairs that would be accurately acknowledged as dictatorial in nature if manifested through the vessel of a state.

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Who cares what economic system NK uses? NK has nuclear weapons, a chip on its shoulder, and its about to have a transfer of power from a cult of personality dictator. I doubt the thousands of dead South Koreans would care what economic system was used to build the artillery that killed them.

    The primary goals to are ensure a smooth transfer of power to avoid a war spilling over the border, as well as preventing WMDs from getting into the wrong hands.

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    North Korea is just another example of a modern version of imperial rule, with a monarch and his successors. China is this way and so is Vietnam. You have large "Communist" parties but their central leaders are always elected through inner political processes, or succession. They claim to be abolishing old ways of rule, but really they are just replacing them with themselves. It's interesting, in a way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    Always get a kick out of the Communists denying Communist nations are Communist.
    The only nation that remotely resembles Communism on this Earth is Cuba. The Asian "Communists" are a fry cry from it. China is more capitalist than even the United States now, due to its increasingly free market and lack of regulation against corruption.

    North Korea is closer to a cleptocracy because most of the resources entering the country (mostly China) are usurped for the head regime and are not distributed evenly to the people, which would be a key marker of a Communist state.

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Make it real simple for the communist wannabe's and 70's era soviet propaganda speakers..
    I know/have known many people who have lived under former and existing Communist states.
    You guys can quote trotsky, lenin, stalin,thaelmann, mao, some twit who wants to be Marx..whoever.

    My own life experiences with Communism in the real world coupled with the real life experiences of people who have actually lived under categorically and completely trumps you all.

    Easy being a "32 flavors basement communist" or whatever we are today while residing in and having obvious no intention of giving up the freedoms and lifestyles you enjoy.

    So set on a a scale
    Real life experience with communism... not as a damn tourist
    VS
    Idealized classroom/booklore based experience

    Yeah..really..whatever...


    /////////////////


    The W.P.K. (Workers Party of Korea) aka the current party running North Korea and heade dby Kim Il-jung. IS the Communist Party.

    North Korean propaganda had played up the Juche ("Self Reliance") routine in order to pretend it is a homegrown ideology as well as part of an idolatry campaign initiated by Kim Il-Sung and since continued by his son Kim Il-Jung.

    I find it pretty bad that is being used to deny North Korea is a Communist states...thats honestly about as bad as declaring East Germany was a Democratic state because it was called 'The German Democratic Republic'
    Last edited by Triad; 06-03-09 at 04:04 AM.

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    Re: North Korea names Kims successor

    Quote Originally Posted by Triad View Post
    Make it real simple.
    I know/have known many people who have lived under former and existing Communist states.
    You guys can quote trotsky, lenin, stalin,thaelmann, mao, some twit who wants to be Marx..whoever.

    My own life experiences with Communism in the real world coupled with the real life experiences of people who have actually lived under categorically and completely trumps you all.

    Easy being a "32 flavors basement communist" or whatever we are today while residing in and having obvious no intention of giving up the freedoms and lifestyles you enjoy.

    So set on a a scale
    Real life experience with communism... not as a damn tourist
    VS
    Idealized classroom/booklore based experience

    Yeah..really..whatever...
    Yeah, that's great. Unfortunately, all the ranting in the world doesn't constitute an argument and doesn't affect the reality that no semblance of "socialism" was present in the USSR, let alone "communism," for reasons explained above.

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