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Thread: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

  1. #71
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    When you undermine your own pay because someone told you unions are bad then yes, you are stupid. Just as stupid as when you vote for a politician who is going to harm you in some fashion, economically, educationally... Stupid.
    Interestingly enough, I work for a nonunion tier 1 auto parts supplier, and we don't want a union because we make enough, and when we have a problem with management, we just work it out, and it mostly works. We have all been to UAW plants to do part sorts, and don't care for the attitude of the people there, both towards us and their jobs. If I was ever as lazy as some of these workers, I would deserve to be fired.


    Got a source or did you mean that you, don't want to be in the UAW? What is it that is so terrible about the UAW?
    Anecdotal evidence from my time in the auto industry.


    And you don't think part of that is a lower employment cost, making cars cheaper? As well as bad business decisions.
    Of course it is. They have made better business decisions, absolutely. Lower costs is a better business decision.

    Thanks for that capt. obvious. You left out the part about - at a lower employment cost.
    Again, I work for a tier 1 supplier. We supply GM, Chrysler and Toyota. I get paid the same no matter which I am making parts for that say.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That would be a perversion of what a union should be...kinda like the UAW I admit, but still...

    What a union should be, and what I would actually not mind having, is an organization that represents the workers and helps give them more of a bargaining position. Every one should have some one on their side, unions should be that for workers.

    Unfortunately, this does not work well in practice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    It may be a perversion of what it should be, but it is exactly what it is.
    Yeah, how so? What is it that the UAW does that is this so called perversion?

    A bargaining position.... to what end?
    A higher standard of living? That's what labor laws and unions did for this country.
    Unfortunately you and your ilk weren't around to work long hours in unsafe conditions for little pay.

  3. #73
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    What UAW does that I would define as a perversion is they promote workers to such an extreme that it hurts the employers to the point that the employer is less competitive.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I have been; I was a dues paying member of the Machinsts Union. What would you like to know?
    Did you forgo the benefits the union offered to make sure your employer made just a little more profit?

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post

    A higher standard of living? That's what labor laws and unions did for this country.
    I wont argue with that. At the founding of unions in the US they had a very good mission and did great things for the working man. However like everything else they have become a self serving entity. I am willing to bet they would suddenly lose interest in the worker if the workers all stopped paying their union dues.

  6. #76
    Advisor Don't Tase Me Bro's Avatar
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    And you know all about it because you live in South Carolina.
    I know it because I do my research

    Like this:

    Universal healthcare's dirty little secrets - Los Angeles Times

    And this:

    Rare Identical Quadruplets Born - washingtonpost.com

    And this:

    Elderly left at risk by NHS bidding wars to find cheapest care with reverse auctions - Times Online

    And this:

    Banned cancer drugs better than NHS ones - Times Online

    And this:

    The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care by David Gratzer, City Journal Summer 2007

    I can give you plenty more if you like. I have dozens of articles like this bookmarked.

  7. #77
    Advisor Don't Tase Me Bro's Avatar
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    The sun will shine tomorrow, need me to prove that too? Maybe you haven't been paying attention to the argument that's been going on concerning the UAW and the big three.
    Maybe you haven't been paying attention the last few years but the southern U.S. (up until the recession that's bit everyone) has been experiencing an economic boom for 20 years now. Our states in the south have been growing by leaps and bounds while the rust belt states, aptly named, up north have been bleeding jobs and population for years.

    Take a look at the 2010 Census projections and how it will affect the Electoral College and Congressional apportionment.

    File:Proposed Electoral College 2012.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Look who is gaining seats: North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Texas, etc. Look who is losing seats: Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, New York, Massachusetts, etc.

    The states that have practiced tax friendly economics to both businesses and residents have thrived. The yankees up north who are still stuck in the economic 1950s are sweeping up the dirt of their once great empires.

    Like we've been telling you for a long time: The South will rise again!

    Last edited by Don't Tase Me Bro; 06-01-09 at 09:48 PM.

  8. #78
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Yup, you really are from SC.

    How does the entity that pays the bill cause you to risk life and death?
    Because as I showed you in post 76, health care is rationed and denied to people if deemed too expensive. This has been going on in Britain for a while now and it has turned into a huge problem there. The architects of our socialist health care system intend to use the same methodology of keeping our costs down:

    Patients count on their doctor to do whatever is possible to treat their illness. That is the promise doctors make by taking the Hippocratic Oath.

    But President Obama’s advisers are looking to save money by interfering with that oath and controlling your doctor’s decisions.

    Ezekiel Emanuel sees the Hippocratic Oath as one factor driving “overuse” of medical care. He is a policy adviser in the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) and a brother of Rahm Emanuel, the president’s chief of staff.

    Dr. Emanuel argues that “peer recognition goes to the most thorough and aggressive physicians.” He has lamented that doctors regard the “Hippocratic Oath’s admonition to ‘use my power to help the patient to the best of my ability and judgment’ as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others.”

    Of course, that is what patients hope their doctor will do.

    But President Barack Obama is pledging to rein in the nation’s health care spending. The framework for influencing your doctor’s decisions was included in the stimulus package, also known as the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009.

    The legislation sets a goal that every individual’s treatments will be recorded by computer, and your doctor will be guided by electronically delivered protocols on “appropriate” and “cost-effective” care.

    Heading the new system is Dr. David Blumenthal, a Harvard Medical School professor, named national coordinator of health information technology. His writings show he favors limits on how much health care people can get.

    “Government controls are a proven strategy for controlling health care expenditures,” he argued in the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) in March 2001.

    Blumenthal conceded there are disadvantages:

    “Longer waits for elective procedures and reduced availability of new and expensive treatments and devices.”

    Yet he called it “debatable” whether the faster care Americans currently have is worth the higher cost.

    IBDeditorials.com: Editorials, Political Cartoons, and Polls from Investor's Business Daily -- The Attack On Doctors' Hippocratic Oath
    And from the same article:

    In critiquing the Hippocratic Oath, Dr. Emanuel calls for training medical students “to move toward more socially sustainable, cost-effective care.” He says the trend “from ‘do everything’ to palliative care shows that change in physician norms is possible.”

    Seems to me that people are dieing due to LACK of health coverage AND people are dieing because their private insurance won't pay for procedures.
    There will always be problems with any system, but the system we have in this country right now is far superior to the crap people are getting in the universal system. There is a reason why people come from all over the world to get treated in our country rather than Britain or Canada or France. The odds of survival with just about any disease is greater in this country than anywhere else in the world. We don't have people dying at anywhere near the rate of other nations. Are the costs starting to get a bit too high? Sure, I don't deny that, but you can blame the Federal government for that, the very same entity you're turning to to fix everything wrong with your life.

    Go back to reading the bible, the end is near ya know.
    If we continue down this path, it's the end of freedom and liberty and the greatest country that ever existed thanks to Marxists like you.

    And by the way, "dieing" is spelled dying. D-Y-I-N-G. I learned that in South Carolina.
    Last edited by Don't Tase Me Bro; 06-01-09 at 09:51 PM.

  9. #79
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Why don't we look at some REAL statistics rather than the nonsensical notions that abuse statistical data?

    What is Europe’s GDP over the last ten years versus the US?

    What is the tax rate of Europeans versus comparable rates of US citizens?

    What is the spending on Government welfare as a percentage of GNP of European nations and the USA?

    Why is it that European nations can spend such a paltry sum on their nations defense over what the USA spends?

    Why is it that you can take statistics about health spending per capita in a vacuum of what that spending constitutes; in other words, does it occur to you that we may spend more per capita because our plans allow us to do much more testing than that permitted by Government plans?

    What is the R&D spending in European systems versus that in the USA?

    How is Europe going to deal with the impending disaster of not being able to pay for its welfare and health programs by an already over-burdened tax payer?

    Truly, it defies logic to think that these statistics somehow support the notion that Government managed ANYTHING is cost effective, provides better services, provides better care and has more choice than the current system in America.

    A friend in Canada once called and complained that he had to wait more than a month to see a doctor for something as benign as acid reflux; I can get with my doctor tomorrow for ANYTHING.

    I had another friend who told the story of her father’s death due to the failure of the British health system; a death that would NOT have occurred here. He had a serious heart condition and needed open heart surgery; he was placed on a waiting list. They decided that the condition merited paying additional money OUTSIDE the system for more immediate care; they were put on a two week waiting list. He died waiting for surgery that here in the US he would never have been let out of the hospital for.

    There are several things certain that occur in a Government "managed" (oxymoron) plan; mediocrity for EVERYONE; less specialists; long waiting times; higher taxes and costs and a lack of research and development.

    Why anyone would want to give up their freedom of choice and become a dependent ward of the State is beyond my comprehension. But Europeans and Canadians have been doing it for so long, they cannot comprehend a better system with MORE choice.
    To continue...
    Having lived and continuing to live on both sides of the pond, it's amazing to see Americans be suckered into this false notion that socialism works in any form.

    Fact is, it's absolute craziness to think this stuff works, especially now when we have been witnessing the decay of these systems in Canada and Europe, long before the economic crisis.

    They worked fine in the beginning, when their post-war economies were booming, but such socialist systems are eventually ripe for and are corrupted. In crisis, when there is less cash, when the number of people paying into the system decreases, and the recipients start to demand services they paid for (and "free" means absolutely no compunction to use and abuse it prolifically)... what then?

    First rationing; government deciding what you get and when... if you get at all.
    Second; collapse of the system.

    The best EU countries as American states, how would they stack up?
    In the bottom 5 American states.
    That's the idiocy Obama wants to follow.

    THIS REPORT IS ABOUT THE FACT that per capita GDP is lower in most of the countries of Europe than in most of the states of the USA. That France, Italy and Germany have less per capita GDP than all but five of the states of the USA ... Or that (Sweden) a country which, if it were a part of the USA, would rank as one of the very poorest states in that Union? Can this be true? Is it plausible? It is both true and plausible.

    http://www.timbro.se/bokhandel/pdf/9175665646.pdf

    Today, the perspectives on the EU, and the outlook on its future, are radically different. Economic growth during the 1990s never became what many had wished for. Some countries performed reasonably well, most notably Ireland, but on the whole the EU was lagging far behind other countries during the whole decade. Productivity growth decreased and by mid-decade the EU was running behind the US in this respect. The
    process of convergence in productivity, a much talked-about process since the 1970s, had once again become a process of divergence.

    The role, and status, of the EU in the economic reform process has also changed. Instead of a clear focus on economic reforms and growth, the EU (the Commission as well as the Council) has concentrated its ambitions on other political objectives. Hence, the EU no longer is – or is seen as – the great economic liberator of Europe.

    This study is based on a widely acclaimed and thought-provoking book – Sweden versus the US – that was published earlier this year in Swedish by the same authors – Dr. Fredrik Bergström, President of The Swedish Research Institute of Trade, and Mr. Robert Gidehag, formerly the Chief Economist of the same institute, and now President of the Swedish Taxpayers’ Association. The study presents important perspectives on European growth and welfare. Its highlight is the benchmark of EU member states and regions to US states. The disturbing result of that benchmark should put it at the top of the agenda for Europe’s future.
    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 06-02-09 at 05:20 AM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  10. #80
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    What? Geez, talk about hackery, dude, seriously, do you live in the south?
    A unions job is to negotiate fair compensation for it's members.

    I guess you don't even understand what you are saying. If high compensation are the reason GM can't compete the raising the compensation of it's competition makes GM competitive.
    Another no-content response from good ol' Slippery.
    Good to see that some things never change.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 06-02-09 at 11:53 AM.

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