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Thread: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Not sure there is a difference.
    When did a union not ask for more money when its contract came up?
    When did a union not counter with a higher number when it was asked to take concessions?
    I have never been in a union, I dunno. When has a contract come up, and the cost of living not gone up?

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    What about the folks that would rather work for a little less?
    They don't have that "right"?
    They have to be organized for their best interests.
    That is in their best interests?
    I dont disagree that people have the right to unionize. My point is that, when the union does its job, it is bad for business, and to argue that everyone should unionize to make those already unionized more competitive is arguing to lower the playing field.

    And what do you make of Obama wanting open union votes?
    It's one thing to vote for it in a private vote, but to make votes public?
    Intimidation.
    The Obama will do whatever the Union leadership wants.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I have never been in a union, I dunno.
    Then it is diffcult for you to speak to any great degree on this issue, yes?

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Then it is diffcult for you to speak to any great degree on this issue, yes?
    have you been part of an union??

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    have you been part of an union??
    As an actual dues-paying member?
    No.

    As someone intimately related with the negotiations between union and management as well as the internal workings of the union leadership?
    Three. One of them rather large.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Then it is diffcult for you to speak to any great degree on this issue, yes?
    How is it difficult to speak of what a union should be, especially since, if I was to end up in a union(I live in Michigan and work in the auto industry, so possible), the union is supposed to work for me.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    How is it difficult to speak of what a union should be...
    Speaking about what they -should be- and what they -are- differ significantly. Anyone can talk about what they -should- be.

    But, even then, you admit that the union exists to get it members more for less, which only makes turning a profit that much more difficult.

    You use the term 'as reasonable' and I use the term 'as possible' -- uniions don't deliberatly or willingly take less than everything they can get, and so 'as possible' seems a lot more accurate than 'as reasonable'.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergslagstroll View Post
    Well letís look at some statistics.

    The USA health care system is the most costly

    Expenditure Per Capita current us$ by country. Definition, graph and map.

    % Of GDP > Expenditure, Total statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

    A lot of countries including most Europeans have more hospital beds per 1000 people than USA

    Per 1,000 People > Hospital Beds statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

    A lot of European countries have more physicians than USA per 1000 people

    Physicians per 1,000 people (most recent) by country

    The same then it comes to nurses.

    Nurses (most recent) by country

    A lot of Europeans countries have a lower infant mortality birth than USA

    Infant Mortality Rate total (most recent) by country

    A lot of Europeans countries have a higher life expectancy than USA

    Total Population > Life Expectancy At Birth statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
    Why don't we look at some REAL statistics rather than the nonsensical notions that abuse statistical data?

    What is Europeís GDP over the last ten years versus the US?

    What is the tax rate of Europeans versus comparable rates of US citizens?

    What is the spending on Government welfare as a percentage of GNP of European nations and the USA?

    Why is it that European nations can spend such a paltry sum on their nations defense over what the USA spends?

    Why is it that you can take statistics about health spending per capita in a vacuum of what that spending constitutes; in other words, does it occur to you that we may spend more per capita because our plans allow us to do much more testing than that permitted by Government plans?

    What is the R&D spending in European systems versus that in the USA?

    How is Europe going to deal with the impending disaster of not being able to pay for its welfare and health programs by an already over-burdened tax payer?

    Truly, it defies logic to think that these statistics somehow support the notion that Government managed ANYTHING is cost effective, provides better services, provides better care and has more choice than the current system in America.

    A friend in Canada once called and complained that he had to wait more than a month to see a doctor for something as benign as acid reflux; I can get with my doctor tomorrow for ANYTHING.

    I had another friend who told the story of her fatherís death due to the failure of the British health system; a death that would NOT have occurred here. He had a serious heart condition and needed open heart surgery; he was placed on a waiting list. They decided that the condition merited paying additional money OUTSIDE the system for more immediate care; they were put on a two week waiting list. He died waiting for surgery that here in the US he would never have been let out of the hospital for.

    There are several things certain that occur in a Government "managed" (oxymoron) plan; mediocrity for EVERYONE; less specialists; long waiting times; higher taxes and costs and a lack of research and development.

    Why anyone would want to give up their freedom of choice and become a dependent ward of the State is beyond my comprehension. But Europeans and Canadians have been doing it for so long, they cannot comprehend a better system with MORE choice.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by bub View Post
    have you been part of an union??
    I have been; I was a dues paying member of the Machinsts Union. What would you like to know?

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That would be a perversion of what a union should be...kinda like the UAW I admit, but still...

    What a union should be, and what I would actually not mind having, is an organization that represents the workers and helps give them more of a bargaining position. Every one should have some one on their side, unions should be that for workers.

    Unfortunately, this does not work well in practice.
    You are describing what I at least, call a "guild." Such an entity would actually employ the workers and contract them out for the best wages possible, but would also enforce standards to assure that the labor they were selling was of high quality.

    I think that this might be a workable scheme.

    The modern Labor movement would never go for it though.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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