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Thread: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

  1. #31
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    What Ails GM
    By George F. Will
    Sunday, May 1, 2005; Page B07

    Who knew? Speculation about which welfare state will be the first to buckle under the strain of the pension and medical costs of aging populations usually focuses on European nations with declining birthrates and aging populations. Who knew the first to buckle would be General Motors, with Ford not far behind?

    GM is a car and truck company -- for the 74th consecutive year, the world's largest -- and has revenue greater than Arizona's gross state product. But GM's stock price is down 45 percent from a year ago; its market capitalization is smaller than Harley-Davidson's. This is partly because GM is a welfare state.

    Health care for retirees and their families -- there are 2.6 of them for every active worker -- is 69 percent of GM's health costs. GM says it has $19.8 billion in cash, and normal mortality rates will reduce the ratio of retirees to active workers. Meanwhile, Rick Wagoner, GM's chief executive, can only muse, "It's strange. When I joined GM 28 years ago, I did it because I love cars and trucks. I had no idea I'd wind up working as a health care administrator."
    .
    Last edited by zimmer; 06-01-09 at 03:07 PM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

  2. #32
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Why would ANYONE think that Government can do a better job managing the cost of healthcare watching the current infestation of idiots in Congress spend us all into a $1.8 trillion deficit, ever increasing amounts of debt and a growing disaster funding Medicare and Social Security?

    What parallel universe do we live in where anyone could think that a Government managed plan would be efficient, cost effective and actually work?
    Yeah, that's what kills me more than anything. The government screws up everything it touches and yet we have all these morons out there who want to literally risk life and death for someone else to pay their medical bills all under the bureaucracy of the government.

  3. #33
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Hey, that's great. Now you can buy a car from the government (GM), get it financed and insured by the government (AIG), and if you can't make the payments, go on government welfare and have the payments made for you. Did I also mention that the price for a new car will double? Get ready for the government bailout of Budweiser. $100.00 six packs are coming soon, and you can also finance one of those through AIG. Just put up your GM car as collateral. Conversely, you can use the beer as collateral to buy a car, that is, if you haven't drank it already.
    AB is now owned by a belgium company

    Human Taxidermist - - now offering his services for all your loved ones
    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    How the hell did you just tie in a retroactive reparative measure with a proactive preventative measure. Not even close to being the same thing.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Anima View Post
    Exactly. Nationalised health care requires only small contributions from every worker in the nation, while employer provided insurance not only means more expense for employers but leaves workers tied to jobs they may wish to leave for fear of losing coverage. The UK spends far less per person on healthcare than the US, but we spend it efficiently and can ficus our time and money on providing care as opposed to working in billing departments and going through the financial ramifications of every single tiny little treatment. Cut that useless beureacracy, and everyone benefits.

    And for anyone who's interested? A British worker on minimum wage contributes £24(around $50) to the NHS in the form of taxes per annum and receives a high standard of care - higher, in many instancs, than that which can be received in the US.
    I see facts are elusive to you. The notion that the European healthcare requires a "small" contribution from every worker is made in a vacuum of the facts.

    European workers pay a far greater percentage in taxes than American workers and to a system that provides a mediocre level of services and care and requires, in many instances, long waiting times.

    Compound that with the current state of National care in Europe and Canada and the FACT that Europe is facing a growing crises in that they are running out of funds to pay for these mediocre programs and the reality that they have pretty much taxed out their citizens.

    The notion that Europeanizing the US is a good thing can only be expressed by Europeans who would like to see the US sink to their level or by Americans who are ignorant of the FACTS.

    A great article expressing the faults of Universal care and how to make America's system far better:

    June 13, 2007
    Competition: A Prescription for Health Care Transformation
    by The Honorable Tom Coburn, M.D., Joseph Antos and Grace-Marie Turner
    Competition: A Prescription for Health Care Transformation

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Wrong. It's the lack of unionization by the ignorant southerners and foreign companies.

    I can not for the life of me understand the mentality that says 'I will fight to get paid less and accept fewer benefits than a union worker doing the same job.' So that CEOs and shareholders can make more money... baffling.
    Once again we see a "bumper sticker" argument from Liberals who would rather parrot Liberal talking points than examine the FACTS.

    Initially, many transplant companies actively chose locations in right-to-work states in the south to avoid unionized labor in the north, and the presumed accompanying costs. Even though the transplants still prefer right-to-work locations, their per employee compensation costs have remained comparable to those of workers in unionized plants.

    http://www.cargroup.org/pdfs/North-SouthPaper.PDF

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Don't Tase Me Bro View Post
    No, a British worker does not receive a better standard of health care than Americans. Health care in Britain sucks big time. They ration, they have massively long waiting lists for surgery, they get denied life saving drugs if the state deems it will cost too much, etc. You can read about this almost daily in some newspaper some where. You have no idea what you're talking about.
    This is true of virtually ALL Government managed programs.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I see facts are elusive to you. The notion that the European healthcare requires a "small" contribution from every worker is made in a vacuum of the facts.

    European workers pay a far greater percentage in taxes than American workers and to a system that provides a mediocre level of services and care and requires, in many instances, long waiting times.

    Compound that with the current state of National care in Europe and Canada and the FACT that Europe is facing a growing crises in that they are running out of funds to pay for these mediocre programs and the reality that they have pretty much taxed out their citizens.

    The notion that Europeanizing the US is a good thing can only be expressed by Europeans who would like to see the US sink to their level or by Americans who are ignorant of the FACTS.

    A great article expressing the faults of Universal care and how to make America's system far better:

    June 13, 2007
    Competition: A Prescription for Health Care Transformation
    by The Honorable Tom Coburn, M.D., Joseph Antos and Grace-Marie Turner
    Competition: A Prescription for Health Care Transformation
    Well letís look at some statistics.

    The USA health care system is the most costly

    Expenditure Per Capita current us$ by country. Definition, graph and map.

    % Of GDP > Expenditure, Total statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

    A lot of countries including most Europeans have more hospital beds per 1000 people than USA

    Per 1,000 People > Hospital Beds statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

    A lot of European countries have more physicians than USA per 1000 people

    Physicians per 1,000 people (most recent) by country

    The same then it comes to nurses.

    Nurses (most recent) by country

    A lot of Europeans countries have a lower infant mortality birth than USA

    Infant Mortality Rate total (most recent) by country

    A lot of Europeans countries have a higher life expectancy than USA

    Total Population > Life Expectancy At Birth statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
    Last edited by Bergslagstroll; 06-01-09 at 03:55 PM.

  8. #38
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    No, stupid southerners and foreign auto companies killed the big three, along with bad strategy.
    This is false on a number of levels. Southerners are not stupid, and the fact that they do not unionize is certainly not the reason GM is failing. Most parts suppliers in Michigan don't want to be in a union, because we just do not like what the UAW is or represents.

    Foreign auto makers only killed GM in that they have, some of them, been more successful than GM. Isn't that how capitalism is supposed to work. The fact that some of those same foreign auto makers supply many jobs to the US is worth noting as well. When I am not laid off, I make parts for Toyota(and GM, and Chrysler).

    Bad strategy, now that I do agree with. Add in a bad economy, which, if it did not cause this, certainly rushed the inevitable, and made it worse fast.

  9. #39
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    I can not for the life of me understand . . .
    This part appears to be the nucleus of your argument.

    Try this. A labor union is extortion by another name, and a goodly number of people don't want to belong, and I do mean belong to what by rights should be considered a criminal enterprise.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 06-01-09 at 04:01 PM.
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Bergslagstroll View Post
    Well letís look at some statistics.

    The USA health care system is the most costly

    Expenditure Per Capita current us$ by country. Definition, graph and map.

    % Of GDP > Expenditure, Total statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

    A lot of countries including most Europeans have more hospital beds per 1000 people than USA

    Per 1,000 People > Hospital Beds statistics - countries compared - NationMaster

    A lot of European countries have more physicians than USA per 1000 people

    Physicians per 1,000 people (most recent) by country

    The same then it comes to nurses.

    Nurses (most recent) by country

    A lot of Europeans countries have a lower infant mortality birth than USA

    Infant Mortality Rate total (most recent) by country

    A lot of Europeans countries have a higher life expectancy than USA

    Total Population > Life Expectancy At Birth statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
    Dont tell them the obvious.. this is not about what is the best and cheapest, but about a hard nosed political ideology regardless of the facts.. they are after all "conservative" and dont like change.
    PeteEU

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