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Thread: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Unionize Toyota. The Big 3 did just fine selling cars before foreign competition. Competition is good, but not unfair competition.
    Unionizing Toyota? Are you kidding? The only reason the Big 3 wages aren't soaring is because they couldn't sell cars for any higher price. If you unionize all of them, then they will all raise their prices.

    I'm fine with employees unionizing themselves, but I'm also fine with that union getting fired for demanding too much. As we're seeing with the American car companies, the unions demanding too much is now forcing them out of a job. Great job guys!

    And you say that Toyota and other Japanese auto manufacturers are subsidized. So what? They still have to sell a good product to us. However, that just means that their other industries are that much weaker. If there are two industries A & B in countries C & D, and B subsidizes A in C, then D will not have a very strong A industry, but B will be booming in D because B from C cannot compete in D what with their profits being tapped to pay for A in C. In short, it doesn't matter that they're being subsidized. In fact, there is an inherent inefficiency in subsidization and so we don't have to worry about another country doing that. You can't subsidize every industry. At some point, someone has to make money.
    Last edited by phattonez; 06-04-09 at 07:08 PM.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You would force people who do not want to be in a union to be in one? I am pretty sure that is illegal. It is certainly a bad idea.
    Why wouldn't people want to be protected by a union?

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Why wouldn't people want to be protected by a union?
    Ask the workers in those plants, and in many plants here in Michigan who have repeatedly turned away the UAW.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Why wouldn't people want to be protected by a union?
    If I'm a part of a union that demands too much, then I have to still go along with them and I risk getting fired. Some wage is better than no wage.

    But if a union gets a company to demand that new employees join the union, then that's their prerogative. However, if the competition has no union, then I wouldn't expect that company to last too long (barring government favoritism).

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Why are unions, in your opinion, a very large part of the problem? Because of increased labor costs (labor costs include honoring contracts made with retirees which they wish to renege on now)? So here we are still talking about labor costs being higher for GM than nonunion companies.
    Would you rather just have GM close it's doors? Then no one gets anything except a few creditors. GM loses, the retirees lose, the creditors lose, the workers lose. It is not in the workers best interest to not renegotiate.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Too bad the analogy is false.
    Hardly. You advocate raising costs on the other companies in a bid to make GM competitive. You've said this at least half a dozen times.

    All that does is cripple the other companies. It doesn't make GM better.

    This is exactly what was done in a Harrison Bergeron classroom -- the better students were literally dumbed down so that they wouldn't perform better than the poorer students. THAT'S what you want to do.

    According to your reasoning, Tanya Harding was made a more competitive skater because her boyfriend piped Nancy Kerrigan.
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    Unionizing Toyota? Are you kidding? The only reason the Big 3 wages aren't soaring is because they couldn't sell cars for any higher price. If you unionize all of them, then they will all raise their prices.
    The big 3 are already unionized so they wouldn't need to increase the price of their cars. Too bad if foreign auto makers can't compete after unionizing.

    I'm fine with employers unionizing themselves, but I'm also fine with that union getting fired for demanding too much. As we're seeing with the American car companies, the unions demanding too much is now forcing them out of a job. Great job guys!
    No, unfair competition is forcing them to cut costs in order to compete and what's the easiest cost to control? Labor.

    And you say that Toyota and other Japanese auto manufacturers are subsidized. So what? They still have to sell a good product to us.
    Yes but they can then sell it cheaper.

    However, that just means that their other industries are that much weaker. If there are two industries A & B in countries C & D, and B subsidizes A in C, then D will not have a very strong A industry, but B will be booming in D because B from C cannot compete in D what with their profits being tapped to pay for A in C. In short, it doesn't matter that they're being subsidized.[/QUOTE]
    The problem is that our companies have tariffs placed on our goods and corporations (where foreign owned companies are even allowed to exist).

    In fact, there is an inherent inefficiency in subsidization and so we don't have to worry about another country doing that. You can't subsidize every industry. At some point, someone has to make money.
    This is untrue, especially given the answer above.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Ask the workers in those plants, and in many plants here in Michigan who have repeatedly turned away the UAW.
    They have been asked and what do they say? The cons have convinced them that unions are bad.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    They have been asked and what do they say? The cons have convinced them that unions are bad.
    Oh, yes. Anyone who disagrees with you is a victim of those eeeeeeviiiillllll "cons."
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Hardly. You advocate raising costs on the other companies in a bid to make GM competitive. You've said this at least half a dozen times.

    All that does is cripple the other companies. It doesn't make GM better.
    It does not even make GM competitive. It's not salaries that are hurting GM much, it's the legacy costs associated with retirees. How do you balance that with Toyota?

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