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Thread: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

  1. #191
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    But why is the contract hurting the company? Because their competition has lower wage costs. Raise the wage in the south and suddenly GMs contracts are no longer a problem. THEN, all auto workers will make a better living. It's what drove the middle class before foreign car companies ever opened their first plant in the USA. Remember?
    There's some Harrison Bergeron thinking there.
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Yeah. They DO. So why wouldn't a UNION comprised of them try to do the same thing? YOU say they don't.
    It's not so much that they don't but rather the way in which you are putting it. If it's reasonable for nonunion workers then why is it unreasonable for union workers?

    YOU brought it up. It was simply to expose the stupidity of YOUR statement.
    Don't be so disingenuous. I said "Interesting, so cars from the Big 3 are at astronomical prices while Toyota's are low priced. Interesting."
    And you compared a corolla to a hummer instead of a Land Cruiser ($65K) to a Hummer.

    Once the government nationalizes all the car companies and drives EVERYONE'S labor costs up, then ALL car prices will go up. It's simple math.
    And if people made better money that increase wouldn't be so bad eh?

    You, of course, seem to think I meant that GM's car prices are higher now, but that's not what I said, and HELLO -- of COURSE they can't sell their cars at higher than market price, which is why they're in trouble -- they're not bringing in enough money to cover costs. Even though they're selling plenty of cars.
    Right, so we increase the cost of a Toyota and GM is competitive.

    Hey, you're the one saying you see no GM cars out there. Really. Go take a look.
    Ever hear of sarcasm... that's what the emote was for, to help you figure it out.
    Which is exactly what I'm saying. That doesn't make GM more competitive. It makes the other companies LESS competitive and drags them down to GM.
    Seriously? If everyone's costs were the same then how would that make foreign auto companies less competitive?

    And yes, you drive costs up for everyone, the price of cars will go up. It's that simple.[/QUOTE]
    Raise their wage and the cost increase is balanced. It's that simple.

  3. #193
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    How about simply being able to compete and survive?
    So the only way for foreign car companies to compete and survive is if they undercut their competition (the big 3) by lowering their wages... So then the Big 3 have to lower their wages to compete with the foreign companies... making the labor costs to build, equal. You could accomplish the same thing by raising the labor costs up to the Big 3 level.

    Besides, since WHEN did simply making a profit become a prima facie evil in this country?
    When profits become out of whack by paying less for more work and/or when doing so harms our ecomony... like it is now.

    Let's see all your tax records. Are you making a profit in your self-employed world? Well, you must be screwing someone, because if you're bringing in more money than you're spending, then you're not paying someone enough. Put your money where your mouth is.

    (And if you're making a LOT of profit, well, the more evil you are. Apparently.)
    Our profit isn't egregiously out of line with our costs.
    Besides I never said making a profit was evil. That is just a specious argument regurgitated by cons but has no basis in the argument.

  4. #194
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    It's not so much that they don't but rather the way in which you are putting it. If it's reasonable for nonunion workers then why is it unreasonable for union workers?
    I didn't say anything about its reasonableness one way or the other. You were simply denying that they do it.


    Don't be so disingenuous. I said "Interesting, so cars from the Big 3 are at astronomical prices while Toyota's are low priced. Interesting."
    And you compared a corolla to a hummer instead of a Land Cruiser ($65K) to a Hummer.
    I wasn't being disingenuous. It's not my fault you misunderstood the point.


    And if people made better money that increase wouldn't be so bad eh?
    Yeah, inflation is great. But you're talking about raising prices for everyone and wages for few.


    Right, so we increase the cost of a Toyota and GM is competitive.
    No. You've simply crippled Toyota so that it make GM look competitive. You don't make an asthmatic runner more competitive by making opponents wear a backpack full of bricks.

    Ever hear of sarcasm... that's what the emote was for, to help you figure it out.
    Whatever you say. You called me "blind" over the point, but if you're conceding it now, then great.

    Seriously? If everyone's costs were the same then how would that make foreign auto companies less competitive?
    I'm not surprised you find this confusing.


    And yes, you drive costs up for everyone, the price of cars will go up. It's that simple.
    Raise their wage and the cost increase is balanced. It's that simple.
    And what about everyone else who doesn't work for a car company? This is just breaking-records-on-your-head laugh-out-loud stupid.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I am not a con, but the reason would be the ability to be competitive. It does not serve the UAW nor it's members to have any UAW shop be closed due to the company being less competitive.
    And like I've said over and over, raise the labor costs for the foreign auto makers. Our ecomony relies on our ability to buy things. If you keep lowering the wage of the people so that corporations can make bigger profits then you undercut the "peoples" ability to buy things. When people can't buy things in a capitalist economy like ours then our economy suffers, corps lay off workers to maintain profits further undermining the economy.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Isn't one of the goals of a union to develop superior skill sets for its members there by making them more efficient and more valuable as an employee?
    That's one of the ideas. As you become more skilled you get paid more. A journeyman electrician makes more in the union than an apprentice.

  7. #197
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    And like I've said over and over, raise the labor costs for the foreign auto makers. Our ecomony relies on our ability to buy things. If you keep lowering the wage of the people so that corporations can make bigger profits then you undercut the "peoples" ability to buy things. When people can't buy things in a capitalist economy like ours then our economy suffers, corps lay off workers to maintain profits further undermining the economy.
    How are you planning to do that exactly? Tell Toyota is has to pay more, so they move out of the country? Are you going to expect suppliers to pay more too, or would you just shift more work from automaker plants to suppliers?

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    So the only way for foreign car companies to compete and survive is if they undercut their competition (the big 3) by lowering their wages... So then the Big 3 have to lower their wages to compete with the foreign companies... making the labor costs to build, equal. You could accomplish the same thing by raising the labor costs up to the Big 3 level.
    Simply repetition of the above.


    When profits become out of whack by paying less for more work and/or when doing so harms our ecomony... like it is now.
    Prove that the healthy car companies' profits are "out of whack" and that it's "harming" our economy.


    Our profit isn't egregiously out of line with our costs.
    But you make the assumption that Nissan's or Toyota's is. Prove it.

    In fact, they could be making MORE profit by charging prices up where GM's would need to be in order to be profitable. Something tells me you'd have issues with that.


    Besides I never said making a profit was evil. That is just a specious argument regurgitated by cons but has no basis in the argument.
    Here, you offered "corporate profits" as an illegitimate reason to lower costs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    No one has yet to explain WHY American companies should lower their employment costs (wages and benefits) to compete with foreign companies who sell their products to Americans. I know you cons keep saying they should lower those costs but you haven't laid out why. I mean other than to increase corporate profits.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    That is a myth. In REALITY, and I speak from personal experience in the construction industry, Union labor merely adds to the cost and length of time it takes to complete a project.

    I have NEVER seen any BETTER quality in the work between the construction I saw in the South and that I which saw in the Northeast.

    The ONLY real difference was the doubling of the cost to build, the doubling of the time it took to build; the intimidation of laborers on the job site by Business Administrators from the Union (in their very expensive suits) and the FACT that these union workers worked specific and LESS hours.

    They came to work at 7:00 a.m. and left exactly at 3:30 p.m. with THREE breaks taking with them the electrical breakers to ensure no one would work illegally after hours.

    In the South, they would work from 7:00 a.m. till it got dark and in some cases, when the schedule demanded it, after dark. They didn't have specific break times and took lunch when the opportunity arose. They made MORE money by getting the work done and moving to the next job.

    Unfortunately, the UNION leadership has been the Unions own worst enemies and have turned the UNION labor into more of an entitlement than a trained efficient work force and actually encourage workers to work at slower pace to ensure work and more labor requirements.

    I worked for the machinists union as a young man and I speaking from personal experience; I was constantly being told I was working TOO fast and increasing the production requirements for my machine for others and this was made CLEAR to me as being no acceptable by the shop steward.

    When I left, I promised to NEVER work in an environment like that again. By the way, this company produced oil valves for the Alaska Pipeline and is out of business now as are many machinist jobs which used to be pre-dominate in this area.
    Funny, I have plenty of family in various unions and (pipefitters and electricians) and my neighbor retired from the communications union in NY, they all have a completely different opinion and experience than you. Go figure.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I'd like to know how much did the unions give to try and stop this.
    Because it was lil shrubs mess, why should Obama take the political hit for raising taxes to pay for lil shrubs mistakes?

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