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Thread: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

  1. #121
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    No, I consider it a condition and a statement of fact, appropriate unless I am under contract, in which case we would both be required to honor those terms. As an contracted employee, or a contracted on with freedom to terminate unilaterally, I have the right to issue a simple statement of fact that I may exercise my right if I continue to feel that continued employment under the existing terms is not to my satisfaction.

    If on the other hand I go to my boss and say, give me a raise or I'll shut your business down (strike), that is simple extortion, and never should have been legal.

    To take a job, agree to the terms of employment and then try to force a change is the act of a common thug.
    That was all very eloquently outlined. Unfortunately for you I'm educated and can read through what you've tried to obscure with pedanticalness.

    To take a job, agree to the terms of employment and then never ask for a raise or threaten to leave unless given a raise or to be fairly compensated, is stupid.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    "Crap cars" which still outsold everyone else's.

    If you're selling more cars yet still can't compete, what does that mean?
    It means your competition has lower costs. Raise the labor cost so that the stupid southerners make a living wage and suddenly the Big 3 are competitive.

  3. #123
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    It means your competition has lower costs. Raise the labor cost so that the stupid southerners make a living wage and suddenly the Big 3 are competitive.
    You have some evidence that those "stupid southerners" are not making a living wage? Hell, they are making a better wage than many of us unemployed northern auto workers...

  4. #124
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    You sound very conservative when you make these kinds of statements which completely lack empathy. What if you weren't making enough? What if management didn't work it out? What then? Strike? Union? That's how it works pal.
    No. "How it works, pal" is that you didn't mention the preferred alternative: find a different job that pays more.

    Can't find a job that pays more? Then who are you to say your job "should" be paid more? Why shouldn't the company replace you with someone less greedy?

  5. #125
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    It means your competition has lower costs. Raise the labor cost so that the stupid southerners make a living wage and suddenly the Big 3 are competitive.
    I find the profound and deep-seated bigotry of this statement pretty much consistent with your overall reasoning skills. But then, that level of reasoning is where hate generally hatches its maggots.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  6. #126
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    That was all very eloquently outlined. Unfortunately for you I'm educated and can read through what you've tried to obscure with pedanticalness.
    Indeed.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  7. #127
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    As little as possible does not automatically mean less work. In this instance it means that unless you pay more you won't have any workers. Or to put it another way, we want more pay for the job WE DO. Not more pay for less work.
    Right. Unions never negotiate for shorter hours, more vacation time, more paid time off for other reasons, etc.. Right.


    If you don't accept that, then it is YOU who are the naive one.
    Yeah.


    Interesting, so cars from the Big 3 are at astronomical prices while Toyota's are low priced. Interesting.
    If you compare a Hummer and a Corolla, sure.


    You must be right because I don't see anyone driving cars built by the Big 3...
    Oh, it's been clear for a long time that you "see" exactly, and ONLY, what you want to see.

    Yet, GM sells more cars than anyone BUT Toyota, and Toyota only surpassed them very recently by.


    Increasing the wages to be comparable would raise the car price to that of the Big 3. People can afford a GM car as evidenced by their sales. Sure, they have made business mistakes in the type of cars they produce but that's not compensation related. So your hypothesis is fails a simply examination.
    No, it doesn't. PeteEU keeps saying that GM is failing because they don't sell cars. But they do. More than anyone except Toyota, and even then, it's a difference of 7%.

    So, it's not the number of cars they sell. If it were, then they wouldn't be in trouble.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  8. #128
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    We will find this? How about you back up that claim with a link to some facts.

    Mandatory Union Membership Slows Employment, Productivity
    The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA), adopted some 70 years ago, enables unions to require all workers covered by its collective bargaining power to become union members and to pay the corresponding dues. However, 22 states have since passed "right-to-work" laws that enable workers to opt out of such agency-fee clauses.

    According to a new report by the Capital Research Center, states that have adopted right-to-work laws have enjoyed superior rates of business productivity, state-level economic growth and job-creation over the past two decades. The reports also showed:

    Depending on the percent of workers unionized, unionization reduced the value added per hour of labor by as much as 6.5 percent.
    Between 1981 and 2001, the economy of the average right-to-work state expanded by 236 percent, while that of the average non-right-to-work state grew by 221 percent.
    Over the last twenty years, the average right-to-work state increased employment by 62 percent, as compared to 42 percent for non-right-to-work states.
    Perhaps most importantly, there has been little difference in pay between right-to-work states and their counterparts once one accounts for the cost of living of living. In 2002, per capita disposable income averaged $27,476 for workers in non-right-to-work states, as compared to $24,335 in right-to-work states -- a disparity of about 11.4 percent. However, according to the American Federation of Teachers (AFT), the cost of living in the average right-to-work state is 11 percent lower than in non-right-to-work states.

    Source: Paul Kersey, "The Economic Case for Right-to-Work Laws," Capital Research Center, January 2004.
    Mandatory Union Membership Slows Employment, Productivity

    I can get more but I thought this sums it up fairly well.

  9. #129
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Sure, works for me.

    Why couldn't GM invest heavily in R&D? They had to pay union extortion.
    Lol you can blame the unions for anything I see. Again why did GM have to pay this "extortion"? Because of the management. It agreed to the terms after all.... often without much negotiation.

    The US Constitution doesn't allow the US government to design cars, that includes setting CAFE standards.

    Therefore the issue is one of government interference, not one of corporate control of Congress.
    Great excuse! That is why GM spent hundreds of millions of dollars over many years in blocking any attempts to get uniformed fuel efficiency standards in the US or even any standard at all in any state..only California managed to get one passed last I looked. Lets see.. which countries were better off with 150 dollars oil... those that have mandatory rules that cars have to achieve 32+ mpg or those that dont? Or do you really like going to the gas station every other day because your car only gets 12 mpg and spending a fortune each time?

    Oil ran out?

    When did that happen? Last time I checked, the United States has 2,300 billion barrels of oil in reserve.
    Where did I say it had run out? I said it would run out and it will. Prices will go up and up and GM have been in denial of this for decades since it has fought against any form of innovation on fuel standards over to alternative fuelled cars. Numbers dont like. GM, Ford, Chrysler saw their car sales drop off a cliff when the gas was high, because they did not have fuel efficient cars to sell.

    Yes, it's the unions fault for electing socialist congressthings that the US government has steadfastly refused to tap those reserves.
    HAHAHAH, how thick do you think we are? Congress being in the hands of the unions? HELLLO.. your lot had control of congress for a decade and for 6 years you had TOTAL control of the US government and you are saying that the Republican party is a bunch of union people? So why did you guys not do anything about it during your total power period?

    Yes. First off, the cost of car ownership is dominated by initial purchase price, which is driven by labor costs.
    And those labour costs are driven up by spineless management that does not know how to say no. It is the union's job to get as much as possible for its membership so at least they were doing their freaking jobs, unlike the GM management.

    Secondly, as pointed out, it's the unions that elect the socialist congressthings that have kept the oil underground. And with those two items, the last becomes irrelevant.
    As I said, Republicans controlled congress from 1996 to 2006, and the whole government from 2000 to 2006, so again.. are they all socialists? Does this mean Newt was a commie?

    GM made damn good trucks. I still like my 350-V8 3500 series van from 1990.
    I see. Since when are trucks a car? I am fully aware that American's love big cars, even though they dont need them, but come on.. it is time to grow up America. And dont come with the lame excuse I constantly hear about "long distances" between work and home..

    In a word, yes.
    So it is the Unions fault that the GM management caved time and time in labour negotiations? Wow, you live in a very twisted world. Let me guess, you also believe it is the womans fault when she is raped right?

    The US has an excellent health care system. Just because it's not a smoking wreck of a socialist system doesn't mean it's wrong.
    The cost and statistics dont show that. But that is another discussion for another thread.

    Oh. You mean the government.
    Yea in part, I give you that. It was after all the Bush administration that put in place the monopolistic laws and rules often written by the industry itself... so yea.. That first law Bush signed just happened to close off the US drug market, and make it a crime for you to buy aspirin in Canada and go over the border.. Such thing dont at all drive prices up noo... not at all.

    The union was a huge part of GM's failure. Anyone denying this can't comprehend what happened.
    I aint denying that the Union's demands over the years have not contributed to the fall of GM.. not at all.

    What I am saying, and what you and your conservative jackboots are not, is that the GM management is at just as much fault if not more.

    While there is no doubt that the labour costs of GM are a big part of the problem, it cant be the fault of the unions who's only job is to get as much for its members as possible. They did their job, and it was in fact the GM management that caved in. Now one can say that it is the unions fault in a way that they did not earlier retract said benefits to save GM earlier, but again why should they when everyone could see that the GM management's business plans were bonehead and a failure? Would only have prolonged the long and painful death of GM.

    It is funny that NO one has mentioned how GM management has kept failing car manufactures in the US and around the world in business for decades... They bought SAAB, a company that has had only one profitable year during the last 30 years, and let me guess, that is the unions fault also?

    The Unions have nothing to do with the strategic and tactical business decisions done by the GM management that have contributed to the fall of GM. Is it the unions fault that Pontiac aint selling enough cars to make a profit? That Hummer is a dud? That SAAB was a loss making company when it was bought? That the only real profitable part of GM for a considerable number of years was Opel... in "socialist Europe"?

    Sorry but giving the GM management a total get out of jail free card and placing most of the blame on the unions is nothing but partisan bs and has nothing to do with reality.
    PeteEU

  10. #130
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post

    No, it doesn't. PeteEU keeps saying that GM is failing because they don't sell cars. But they do. More than anyone except Toyota, and even then, it's a difference of 7%.

    So, it's not the number of cars they sell. If it were, then they wouldn't be in trouble.
    No I aint. I am saying GM is failing because of bone head decisions by the management over the decades and this includes the insane labour costs.
    PeteEU

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