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Thread: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    "Crap cars" which still outsold everyone else's.

    If you're selling more cars yet still can't compete, what does that mean?
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Is it the unions fault that the management of GM were a bunch of pansies that allowed the company to become a bloated cestpool?
    Sure, works for me.

    Why couldn't GM invest heavily in R&D? They had to pay union extortion.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Is it the unions fault that the management of GM decade after decade successfully bribed the US lawmakers to not implement fuel efficiency standards?
    The US Constitution doesn't allow the US government to design cars, that includes setting CAFE standards.

    Therefore the issue is one of government interference, not one of corporate control of Congress.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Is it the unions fault that the management of GM refused to accept the fact that oil would run out and that alternatives were needed?
    Oil ran out?

    When did that happen? Last time I checked, the United States has 2,300 billion barrels of oil in reserve.

    Yes, it's the unions fault for electing socialist congressthings that the US government has steadfastly refused to tap those reserves.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Or that the present cars were too expensive to run at a certain oil price because of the mileage issue?
    Yes. First off, the cost of car ownership is dominated by initial purchase price, which is driven by labor costs. Secondly, as pointed out, it's the unions that elect the socialist Congressthings that have kept the oil underground. And with those two items, the last becomes irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Is it the unions fault that the management of GM and GM as a whole have produced substandard and crappy cars for decades?
    GM made damn good trucks. I still like my 350-V8 3500 series van from 1990.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    As for the healthcare costs. Again, is it the unions fault that the GM management bent over and took it up the butt and allowed these things?
    In a word, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Is it the unions fault that the US healthcare system is a failure of epic poportions
    The US has an excellent health care system. Just because it's not a smoking wreck of a socialist system doesn't mean it's wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    and driven by a bunch of greedy monopolistic companies that have driven prices up and up for years on end?
    Oh. You mean the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    While I am the first to admit that the unions have damaged GM, no one can deny that the majority of the blame has to be put on the management of GM, put in place by the shareholders. It is their epic fails year after year, decade after decade, that have resulted in the demise of the once proud General Motors. The unions was only a small part in the grand scale of things, but seems to get most of the blame from the usual conservative persons on these boards and in the media.. frankly pathetic.
    The union was a huge part of GM's failure. Anyone denying this can't comprehend what happened.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    "Crap cars" which still outsold everyone else's.

    If you're selling more cars yet still can't compete, what does that mean?
    Even that is not true any longer. Toyota took over as worlds largest auto maker this year.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Even that is not true any longer. Toyota took over as worlds largest auto maker this year.
    By a little bit, yes. But GM's troubles have been going on a for a long time, and only LAST YEAR did anyone outsell them, for the first time in 77 years, and only then by about 7%.

    So, how does a company outsell everyone else yet still be bankrupt?
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    The factual reasons for the demise of GM, Chrysler and the poor sales and productivity of Ford go back much farther than just a couple of years and encompass more than these three companies alone.
    During the oil embargo of the 70 the hand writing was on the wall that changes were needed and the response was meager at best with the introduction of the Chevy Vega, Ford Pinto, which were of questionable success and the slightly better yet still failed Chrysler K-cars. None of them are around today because they were stop gap measures and had no long range planning go into them ,and the minute the oil embargo lifted these cars went away for ever. Some would rightfully say for the good, and they would be right. But the big three went right back to the thinking that had brought them to that point and they ignored the need to fundamental changes that were needed like for quality control and product lines to compete with the imports from Datsun at the time Toyota, Mazda. So for thirty years it was pretty much business as usual and all the while market share was dwindling and the innovation this country has been famous for over 200 years went for the most part untapped.
    At the same time the problems listed very well by others in this thread went unchecked and were allowed to dictate contracts that led to lower profits and long term damage to the industry as quality and productivity fell at the same time the import manufacturers were coming to our shores producing higher quality, better mileage, more profitable cars in nonunion shops and still the big three management went on in the same mode that they have been in for most of there business lives. All the while the cost of production was driving the cost per unit past the rate of inflation.
    At the same time other industries like housing and real estate along with many consumer product costs kept climbing at out of control rates without justification.
    Eventually all this and schemes like NAFTA & GATT the Machiladora program along with unanswered unchecked cheap imports all leading to job loses in almost all manufacturing set the stage for the collapse we have all seen recently come to a head.
    Then we have to look at the unprecedented Government take over of private businesses and ask the questions about the longer term effects this will have on the free market process as well as the cost initially bail outs and whether they were worth it or did they just postpone the inevitable, and we would have been better off to allow most of these failed companies go through bankruptcy on there own?
    It is clear to me that while we are hearing from Obama that he doesn't want to run these companies it is exactly what is being done. We are in need with actual leadership and change and talking about change is not change. Saying one thing and acting in contrast to your statements is not leadership it's lying.
    As much as I love this country and have always thought of myself as a patriot I have to admit that there are few areas where of Government run programs are models to be emulate by business.
    I hope this makes sense to you. Seldom does logic or long range planning or thought enter into some business management and most Government and politics I know, I've seen and done it all from both sides.
    It's time for Statesmanship in leadership in our Country to replace partisan political hacks who put their party and ideology ahead of the Country and our citizens future.
    Last edited by Councilman; 06-02-09 at 03:42 PM.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    The factual reasons for the demise of GM, Chrysler and the poor sales and productivity of Ford go back much farther than just a couple of years and encompass more than these three companies alone.
    During the oil embargo of the 70 the hand writing was on the wall that changes were needed and the response was meager at best with the introduction of the Chevy Vega, Ford Pinto, which were of questionable success and the slightly better yet still failed Chrysler K-cars. None of them are around today because they were stop gap measures and had no long range planning go into them, and the minute the oil embargo lifted these cars went away for ever. Some would rightfully say for the good, and they would be right.
    I's not sure how you reach this conclusion -- look at the Chevy/Ford priduct lines in 1975 and then in 1985 -- you'll see that all of the cars across the same class are smaller, lighter and more efficient.

    But the big three went right back to the thinking that had brought them to that point and they ignored the need to fundamental changes that were needed like for quality control and product lines to compete with the imports from Datsun at the time Toyota, Mazda.
    THIS has some merit. Domestic quality control has always been an issue, which as amuch to do with the people that put them together as the people that design them.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    By a little bit, yes. But GM's troubles have been going on a for a long time, and only LAST YEAR did anyone outsell them, for the first time in 77 years, and only then by about 7%.

    So, how does a company outsell everyone else yet still be bankrupt?
    That would be higher costs.

    Not arguing with you, just pointed out that GM is no longer the top auto maker. By the way, if it is by 7 %, that is not a "little bit", but actually pretty huge.

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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    I have been driving since 1960's, never purchased a foreign branded car, never had a lemon, never even had a major component fail, and I usually hang onto them til they reach 100K miles on the odometer.
    GM was surviving on its reputation and the economic crisis put it under.

    all that aside, I don't see the govt as being the white knight that saves GM from being eaten by the dragon.
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    The thing is, if GM is to survive under government/union management, then everyone else is going to have to be nationalized, too.

    Otherwise, GM is doomed. Its ability to compete will be even worse than it was before. Government and union interests are simply counter to market viability.

    So, either GM is done, or so is the entire private automobile industry.
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    Re: GM goes bankrupt and gets nationalised

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The thing is, if GM is to survive under government/union management, then everyone else is going to have to be nationalized, too.

    Otherwise, GM is doomed. Its ability to compete will be even worse than it was before. Government and union interests are simply counter to market viability.

    So, either GM is done, or so is the entire private automobile industry.
    I am not seeing where the government is actually going to manage GM. You have a source for that?

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