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Thread: Israel debates 'loyalty' law

  1. #51
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    Re: Israel debates 'loyalty' law

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    This ain't no excuse to shoot rockets from a person's house. It simply tells Israel "If you're gonna shoot, we'll take down civilians with us."
    I don't expect Hamas to launch rockets from open fields as it'd just be slaughtered easily. That doesn't mean I won't object to them shooting at our civilians while taking hostage their own. That is a double crime against humanity, and I cannot accept it.
    I never supported hamas shooting rockets. They never shot them FROM people's houses that's simply bogus. But when the IDF attacks them, they are not going to go sit in open fields and you agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    If the journalists were to die, it'd deal a much larger damage to Israel than blocking their entrance.
    Israel did the right thing in not letting them in.
    I was a war photographer myself for many years and it is not acceptable by the journalistic code for military forces not to allow journalists into areas of conflict. It is a violation to the professional code, as simple as that.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

  2. #52
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    Re: Israel debates 'loyalty' law

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    I never supported hamas shooting rockets. They never shot them FROM people's houses that's simply bogus. But when the IDF attacks them, they are not going to go sit in open fields and you agreed.
    No, it's not simply bogus, there's enough evidence to support the claim that they do so.
    And the fact that I agreed Hamas members aren't going to shoot rockets from open fields means I'm a realist, not that I'm fine with them shooting rockets from houses.
    I was a war photographer myself for many years and it is not acceptable by the journalistic code for military forces not to allow journalists into areas of conflict. It is a violation to the professional code, as simple as that.
    A violation Israel can handle.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Israel debates 'loyalty' law

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    No, it's not simply bogus, there's enough evidence to support the claim that they do so.
    And the fact that I agreed Hamas members aren't going to shoot rockets from open fields means I'm a realist, not that I'm fine with them shooting rockets from houses.
    A violation Israel can handle.
    Show me the evidence that they were shooting from homes and I'll accpet it.

    Yes, Israel has handled a huge numbers of violations, including U.N. resolutions and the use of illegal weapons. I'm sure that they can handle this one also.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

  4. #54
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    Re: Israel debates 'loyalty' law

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Show me the evidence that they were shooting from homes and I'll accpet it.
    What kind of evidence do you want? Would a video taken from the air showing a rocket launching from a house do?
    Yes, Israel has handled a huge numbers of violations, including U.N. resolutions and the use of illegal weapons. I'm sure that they can handle this one also.
    I only speak of the journalists thing, but hey, whatever suits your imagination.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Israel debates 'loyalty' law

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    What kind of evidence do you want? Would a video taken from the air showing a rocket launching from a house do?
    I only speak of the journalists thing, but hey, whatever suits your imagination.
    Yes, a video will be just fine.

    My imagination ? Why did they leave hundreds of thousands of cluster bombs in South Lebanon that are still killing and maiming civilians ?
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

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    Re: Israel debates 'loyalty' law

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    Yes, a video will be just fine.

    My imagination ? Why did they leave hundreds of thousands of cluster bombs in South Lebanon that are still killing and maiming civilians ?
    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAokqVFMvWU&feature=related]YouTube - Israeli Air Force Strikes Rocket Launcher 27.12.08[/ame]

    They didn't leave cluster bombs there. Leaving cluster bombs would mean they purposely just left it there for it to explode later. Cluster bombs have a high rate of bombs that fail to explode when being launched. It's not considered an illegal weapon, however, and many countries use it.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Israel debates 'loyalty' law

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    YouTube - Israeli Air Force Strikes Rocket Launcher 27.12.08

    They didn't leave cluster bombs there. Leaving cluster bombs would mean they purposely just left it there for it to explode later. Cluster bombs have a high rate of bombs that fail to explode when being launched. It's not considered an illegal weapon, however, and many countries use it.
    yes, I've seen that film already, in a densely populated area empty schools and mosques are good hiding palces. As for hiding weapons in homes, it is their homes, they are a militia and live among their families.

    The use of children as fighters has always been the case for decades and I find it very sad. I have interviewed a few of them and it's very shocking.
    They all feel responsible in taking part in the resistence, even women and children.

    The cluster bombs that they left behind in South Lebanon were old stocks and they knew very well that the majority would not explode on impact. They used them anyway and until this day, civilians are getting killed and maimed. Most of them have been removed by experts and many are still burried in the ground.

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96jWB3Q-MvI&feature=channel_page]YouTube - Israeli Soldier Speaks the Truth on BBC[/ame]

    edit: sorry, not the one you posted, I've seen another one.
    Last edited by Mira; 06-01-09 at 05:32 PM.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

  8. #58
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    illegal weapons and cluster bombs

    IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon - Haaretz - Israel News


    Last update - 00:00 12/09/2006

    IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon

    By Meron Rappaport



    "What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

    Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

    In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.

    The rocket unit commander stated that Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) platforms were heavily used in spite of the fact that they were known to be highly inaccurate.
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

  9. #59
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    Re: Israel debates 'loyalty' law

    Quote Originally Posted by Mira View Post
    yes, I've seen that film already, in a densely populated area empty schools and mosques are good hiding palces. As for hiding weapons in homes, it is their homes, they are a militia and live among their families.

    The use of children as fighters has always been the case for decades and I find it very sad. I have interviewed a few of them and it's very shocking.
    They all feel responsible in taking part in the resistence, even women and children.

    The cluster bombs that they left behind in South Lebanon were old stocks and they knew very well that the majority would not explode on impact. They used them anyway and until this day, civilians are getting killed and maimed. Most of them have been removed by experts and many are still burried in the ground.

    YouTube - Israeli Soldier Speaks the Truth on BBC

    edit: sorry, not the one you posted, I've seen another one.
    Israel gains nothing from simply killing civilians. This is just ridiculous. Cluster bombs are legal weapons and their high detonation failure rate didn't stop them from being legal weapons.

    And about the 'resistance', yes, the mighty resistance. We all saw how fast they ran to their sewers once the IDF reached the city. They're not a resistance to the IDF but rather to humanity itself.

    Also, the guy in that video belongs to the far-left political wing in Israel. It's hilarious how they tried to show him as a patriot who loves his country.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: Israel debates 'loyalty' law

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Israel gains nothing from simply killing civilians. This is just ridiculous. Cluster bombs are legal weapons and their high detonation failure rate didn't stop them from being legal weapons.

    And about the 'resistance', yes, the mighty resistance. We all saw how fast they ran to their sewers once the IDF reached the city. They're not a resistance to the IDF but rather to humanity itself.

    Also, the guy in that video belongs to the far-left political wing in Israel. It's hilarious how they tried to show him as a patriot who loves his country.
    What you consider terrorists, they consider resistants. Weather you like it or not, weather I like it or not, that's the case.

    I'm glad that there's a left-wing in Israel that realise the crimes of their country, and I'm glad that there are many like me who realise the crimes of my people.

    You cannot deny that the cluster and phosphorous bombs caused unnecessary civilian casualties and they are still causing damage until today.

    Israel is not the just and merciful state that you'd like it to be. I have no problem admitting our mistakes, why are you having so much trouble admitting those that Israel has comitted ?
    "True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance." -- Akhenaton
    To understand does not mean to support or to excuse

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