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Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

Me? I was not the one building the "what-if" scenario if the campus had allowed guns there this person would still be alive.

Yes, please, let's talk about facts, there is no proof that if the campus had allowed guns that this girl would still be alive. Let's stick to facts then.




Sure there are.



Guns are used 1.5 million times a year for self defense according to a study conducted under liberal bill clinton:


Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"—a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.



I have facts, you, Hazlenut, and others only have emotions to make excuses to let people get slaughtered. ;)
 
Great adendum.
What say you of the big push in Nashville for the right to carry, "In Bars"?
The votes to approve were all very heavily in favor, the bill was passed, then vetoed by the Governor. One stpulation was that he who carries may NOT drink while carrying.
It strikes me as a strange concept, but if you`re going to be around drunk criminals, in a bar, who are carrying, and you want to protect your date, loved one , friends,...etc, It makes a little sense.
I am not strongly for or against the idea, it just strikes me as a hrad sell, a bit strange, in a gun fearing- gun grabbing world, to try to pass a bill called, "The right to carry a concealed weapon in a Bar".
Sober...OK. Just add ONE little drink, and the gun can be the wrong thing to have around. The law does say, "NO DRINKING allowed". Whats your opinion ?

BTW there is at least 1 shoot-out each month in Nashville clubs or bars. It is primarily a cultural phenomenon though. Folks like Packman Jones, now liveing in infamy, after the club shoot-out which resulted in an innocent man being parlyzed for life.




That's the stickler.


You get caught .05-.08 whatever armed, you should be in a heap of trouble. Alchohol makes you stupid...


My feeling is the same thing with motorcycles. I see these idiot putters (harleys) Lecture me on my leather racing suit and my sport bike about how I am gonna kill myself or why do I wear all that gear, Meanwhile they are all headed out in t shirts jeans and fake helmets to a bar that gives any motorcyclist "2 dollar buds" all night long....


Alchohol and guns do not mix. I would have less of a problem of a ban in bars, than a ban on school campuses. That said, ultimatley I am like you, I think.
 
Really? "sheepdogs" deter people like this every day.

Again, how would a sheepdog deter an insane dude from stabbing this girl?

Yes, I know all about the small towns in Texas or wherever that overall stats crime came down when carry laws were loosened. But anybody who thinks that would work in L.A. or NYC is talking out of his ass.

DC is a shining example of a city where guns are completely banned and crime is almost non-existent.
 
Again, how would a sheepdog deter an insane dude from stabbing this girl?



DC is a shining example of a city where guns are completely banned and crime is almost non-existent.

I really hope you're being sarcastic.
 
Again, how would a sheepdog deter an insane dude from stabbing this girl?

Two in the chest, one in the brain housing group.

Maybe she gets stabbed once. She gets to keep the cabeza, no? :mrgreen:

DC is a shining example of a city where guns are completely banned and crime is almost non-existent.



:rofl:rofl:rofl
 
Sure there are.



Guns are used 1.5 million times a year for self defense according to a study conducted under liberal bill clinton:


Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"—a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.



I have facts, you, Hazlenut, and others only have emotions to make excuses to let people get slaughtered. ;)

So you can GUARANTEE 100% that if that campus allowed guns there would be gun holders GURANTEED that would have shot the guy?

I think not., like I said, your what-if scenario is just that, WHAT IF.

You say you want to speak facts and then throw out a what-if? :doh
 
So you can GUARANTEE 100% that if that campus allowed guns there would be gun holders GURANTEED that would have shot the guy?


That would be idiotic. Why ask such a stupid question...

To answer it though, the chances he would have been stopped go way up.

I think not., like I said, your what-if scenario is just that, WHAT IF.

So you answered your own idiotic extremist logic question. Good for you.

Nothing in life is 100% guaranteed.


You say you want to speak facts and then throw out a what-if? :doh


I threw out facts, you threw out hysterics. :lol:
 
I threw out facts, you threw out hysterics. :lol:

I mentioned that this girl would not necessarily be alive because Campus allowed guns. That is true no matter how you want to spin it.
 
I mentioned that this girl would not necessarily be alive because Campus allowed guns. That is true no matter how you want to spin it.

Straw man. I didn't say, and I don't think anyone else said, that this girl would absolutely be alive if "guns were allowed on campus". We said it would increase the likelihood of someone intervening effectively and maybe saving her life.

And Hazelnut et al, we're not talking about letting everyone walk around strapped, we're talking about those with concealed carry permits. Atlanta and Birmingham both have metro populations over a million, and states that are "shall-issue" concealed carry permit states, and violent crime decreased after that law was passed. The information is out there, I've posted it on this forum before (search engine).

G.
 
Again, how would a sheepdog deter an insane dude from stabbing this girl?
.


I'm not sure why you're not getting what Ethereal and I are saying. We're not talking about deterrence.

Deterrence is causing a person to not initiate something for fear of the consequences.

We're talking about the "sheepdog" (which does not mean an actual dog, but rather a human being with the mindset to protect others) actually stopping the perp in the act.

As in, shoot him, bash in his brainpan, knock him out, beat his ass. I assure you these actions, carried out successfully, would stop him cold.

To other matters...

For those excusing the lack of response on behalf of the students and staff, I will say that when I was a 21 yo, I would have acted and attacked the perp, armed or unarmed. I'm not your average Joe, I've been a cop and even at 21 was intrested in either the military or LE fields, yes, but I'm hardly unique.

I conceded early on that if there were a total lack of testicular fortitude among the bystanders then the presence of any weapons would make little difference...though many people would be more willing to take down a knife-wielding maniac if they had a pistol than if they had nothing.

Again, we're talking about people over 21...older students, grad students, students just out of the military, teachers, staffers, maintenance men, etc...who have gone through the training, background checks and bother of getting a carry permit. This is a subset of the college population, we're not advocating letting every booze-swilling 19yo walk around strapped.

(STILL, I keep coming to the issue of if 21yo college students are supposedly that irresponsible, why do we let them buy booze anyway? Why let them drive cars? Annual auto deaths are about 40,000, compared to annual gun deaths from all causes including police shootings of about 30,000. Inconsistent.)

Campus security, btw, is largely a joke. They're mostly there for liability purposes; they lack the numbers to be everywhere all the time...just like cops.

Ask yourself why most of these horrific incident occur in places where law abiding permit holders are barred from bringing guns? Because those places are safer for the perp.

The most conservative, gov't-sponsored studies put defensive gun use between 60-200,000 a year. Other studies suggest the number may be from half a million to as much as 2.5 million annually, with most cases not reported because no shots were fired. Taking a middle/average postion of say half a million such defensive uses, guns prevent crime thousands of times more often than they are used in any sort of homicide. This is so significant that it clearly argues that allowing permit holders to carry would reduce these heinous crimes and mass murders taking place in "citizen disarmament zones".

G.
 
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I mentioned that this girl would not necessarily be alive because Campus allowed guns. That is true no matter how you want to spin it.


You posed the absurd 100% question, are you backing away from it now? :lol:



Furthermore, statistically, as I have demonstrated using statistics from the Clinton administration. Her chances would go up significantly.


Thank you for your concession.
 
You posed the absurd 100% question, are you backing away from it now? :lol:

Yes, I posed a question. How you can get a concession from asking a question, I have no idea.

You can no more say she would be safer, but hey have fun with your "What-if".
I made no concession because a question is not a statement to concede to.
 
Yes, I posed a question. How you can get a concession from asking a question, I have no idea.

You can no more say she would be safer, but hey have fun with your "What-if".
I made no concession because a question is not a statement to concede to.



so whats your point? all i see from you is fact lacking hysteria.
 
I have facts, you, Hazlenut, and others only have emotions to make excuses to let people get slaughtered. ;)


Whenever you're ready to post links to those facts with nonpartisan analysis of the data--I'd be happy to read it.

Until that time you got jack, buddy.:cool:

The reasons for a crime drop in a certain area are varied and complicated. People usually end up studying it from an angle that will give them the results they want.

Economics focus: Gun Control and Crime

From a hypothetical perspective, gun ownership could promote crime by facilitating violence; or it could deter it, by implicitly threatening retribution. Empirically, the question has been hard to resolve. Economists seeking to map the relationship between American gun ownership and crime face a formidable obstacle: data on gun ownership exists only at the national level.
 
so whats your point? all i see from you is fact lacking hysteria.

That you saying she would have been better off if the campus had allowed guns is just another "what-if". The hysteria is coming from you.
 
Whenever you're ready to post links to those facts with nonpartisan analysis of the data--I'd be happy to read it.

Until that time you got jack, buddy.:cool:

The reasons for a crime drop in a certain area are varied and complicated. People usually end up studying it from an angle that will give them the results they want.

Economics focus: Gun Control and Crime




partisan?

what part of "a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig" is giving you pause?




FAIL
 
That you saying she would have been better off if the campus had allowed guns is just another "what-if". The hysteria is coming from you.




Nonsense, I used a clinton justice department study to shatter your position.


also note:


* Concealed carry laws have reduced murder and crime rates in the states that have enacted them. According to a comprehensive study which reviewed crime statistics in every county in the United States from 1977 to 1992, states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%. joh lott more guns less crime
 
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No you posed a what-if scenario, have fun.



I'll repeat:


also note:


Concealed carry laws have reduced murder and crime rates in the states that have enacted them. According to a comprehensive study which reviewed crime statistics in every county in the United States from 1977 to 1992, states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%. joh lott more guns less crime



i have posted facts, studies, etc. you post hysterics. you have no arguable position, FAIL.
 
According to a comprehensive study which reviewed crime statistics in every county in the United States from 1977 to 1992, states which passed concealed carry laws reduced their rate of murder by 8.5%, rape by 5%, aggravated assault by 7% and robbery by 3%. joh lott more guns less crime[/I]

What happened to the crime rate in states that did not pass concealed carry laws?
 
What happened to the crime rate in states that did not pass concealed carry laws?



I dunno. ;)



also pertaining to TNE's damsel in distress:



As many as 200,000 women use a gun every year to defend themselves against sexual abuse -Kleck and Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime," at 173, 185.
 
That would be kind of important in determining what those statistics mean.




well lets look at florida then:


Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rate in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period—thus putting the Florida rate below the national average.



-Florida’s murder rate was 11.4 per 100,000 in 1987, but only 5.5 in 2002. Compare Federal Bureau of Investigation, "Crime in the United States," Uniform Crime Reports, (1988): 7, 53; and FBI, (2003):19, 79.
 
well lets look at florida then:

Florida: concealed carry helps slash the murder rate in the state. In the fifteen years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, over 800,000 permits to carry firearms were issued to people in the state.FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 52% during that 15-year period—thus putting the Florida rate below the national average.

-Florida’s murder rate was 11.4 per 100,000 in 1987, but only 5.5 in 2002. Compare Federal Bureau of Investigation, "Crime in the United States," Uniform Crime Reports, (1988): 7, 53; and FBI, (2003):19, 79.

Again, these statistics are useless unless they're controlled for other factors such as wealth, race, population, national factors, etc.

The homicide rate between 1991 and 2006 dropped by around 80% in NYC, and we didn't allow concealed carry. Does that mean that banning guns works? No.
 
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