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Thread: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

  1. #81
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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Sure there are.



    Guns are used 1.5 million times a year for self defense according to a study conducted under liberal bill clinton:


    Even anti-gun Clinton researchers concede that guns are used 1.5 million times annually for self-defense. According to the Clinton Justice Department, there are as many as 1.5 million cases of self-defense with a firearm every year. The National Institute of Justice published this figure in 1997 as part of "Guns in America"a study which was authored by noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig.



    I have facts, you, Hazlenut, and others only have emotions to make excuses to let people get slaughtered.
    So you can GUARANTEE 100% that if that campus allowed guns there would be gun holders GURANTEED that would have shot the guy?

    I think not., like I said, your what-if scenario is just that, WHAT IF.

    You say you want to speak facts and then throw out a what-if?

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    So you can GUARANTEE 100% that if that campus allowed guns there would be gun holders GURANTEED that would have shot the guy?

    That would be idiotic. Why ask such a stupid question...

    To answer it though, the chances he would have been stopped go way up.

    I think not., like I said, your what-if scenario is just that, WHAT IF.
    So you answered your own idiotic extremist logic question. Good for you.

    Nothing in life is 100% guaranteed.



    You say you want to speak facts and then throw out a what-if?

    I threw out facts, you threw out hysterics.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I threw out facts, you threw out hysterics.
    I mentioned that this girl would not necessarily be alive because Campus allowed guns. That is true no matter how you want to spin it.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by stevenb View Post
    i really hope you're being sarcastic.




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    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    I mentioned that this girl would not necessarily be alive because Campus allowed guns. That is true no matter how you want to spin it.
    Straw man. I didn't say, and I don't think anyone else said, that this girl would absolutely be alive if "guns were allowed on campus". We said it would increase the likelihood of someone intervening effectively and maybe saving her life.

    And Hazelnut et al, we're not talking about letting everyone walk around strapped, we're talking about those with concealed carry permits. Atlanta and Birmingham both have metro populations over a million, and states that are "shall-issue" concealed carry permit states, and violent crime decreased after that law was passed. The information is out there, I've posted it on this forum before (search engine).

    G.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Again, how would a sheepdog deter an insane dude from stabbing this girl?
    .

    I'm not sure why you're not getting what Ethereal and I are saying. We're not talking about deterrence.

    Deterrence is causing a person to not initiate something for fear of the consequences.

    We're talking about the "sheepdog" (which does not mean an actual dog, but rather a human being with the mindset to protect others) actually stopping the perp in the act.

    As in, shoot him, bash in his brainpan, knock him out, beat his ass. I assure you these actions, carried out successfully, would stop him cold.

    To other matters...

    For those excusing the lack of response on behalf of the students and staff, I will say that when I was a 21 yo, I would have acted and attacked the perp, armed or unarmed. I'm not your average Joe, I've been a cop and even at 21 was intrested in either the military or LE fields, yes, but I'm hardly unique.

    I conceded early on that if there were a total lack of testicular fortitude among the bystanders then the presence of any weapons would make little difference...though many people would be more willing to take down a knife-wielding maniac if they had a pistol than if they had nothing.

    Again, we're talking about people over 21...older students, grad students, students just out of the military, teachers, staffers, maintenance men, etc...who have gone through the training, background checks and bother of getting a carry permit. This is a subset of the college population, we're not advocating letting every booze-swilling 19yo walk around strapped.

    (STILL, I keep coming to the issue of if 21yo college students are supposedly that irresponsible, why do we let them buy booze anyway? Why let them drive cars? Annual auto deaths are about 40,000, compared to annual gun deaths from all causes including police shootings of about 30,000. Inconsistent.)

    Campus security, btw, is largely a joke. They're mostly there for liability purposes; they lack the numbers to be everywhere all the time...just like cops.

    Ask yourself why most of these horrific incident occur in places where law abiding permit holders are barred from bringing guns? Because those places are safer for the perp.

    The most conservative, gov't-sponsored studies put defensive gun use between 60-200,000 a year. Other studies suggest the number may be from half a million to as much as 2.5 million annually, with most cases not reported because no shots were fired. Taking a middle/average postion of say half a million such defensive uses, guns prevent crime thousands of times more often than they are used in any sort of homicide. This is so significant that it clearly argues that allowing permit holders to carry would reduce these heinous crimes and mass murders taking place in "citizen disarmament zones".

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 05-31-09 at 04:27 PM.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    I mentioned that this girl would not necessarily be alive because Campus allowed guns. That is true no matter how you want to spin it.

    You posed the absurd 100% question, are you backing away from it now?



    Furthermore, statistically, as I have demonstrated using statistics from the Clinton administration. Her chances would go up significantly.


    Thank you for your concession.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    You posed the absurd 100% question, are you backing away from it now?
    Yes, I posed a question. How you can get a concession from asking a question, I have no idea.

    You can no more say she would be safer, but hey have fun with your "What-if".
    I made no concession because a question is not a statement to concede to.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Yes, I posed a question. How you can get a concession from asking a question, I have no idea.

    You can no more say she would be safer, but hey have fun with your "What-if".
    I made no concession because a question is not a statement to concede to.


    so whats your point? all i see from you is fact lacking hysteria.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post


    I have facts, you, Hazlenut, and others only have emotions to make excuses to let people get slaughtered.

    Whenever you're ready to post links to those facts with nonpartisan analysis of the data--I'd be happy to read it.

    Until that time you got jack, buddy.

    The reasons for a crime drop in a certain area are varied and complicated. People usually end up studying it from an angle that will give them the results they want.

    Economics focus: Gun Control and Crime

    From a hypothetical perspective, gun ownership could promote crime by facilitating violence; or it could deter it, by implicitly threatening retribution. Empirically, the question has been hard to resolve. Economists seeking to map the relationship between American gun ownership and crime face a formidable obstacle: data on gun ownership exists only at the national level.

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