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Thread: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Lot's of sheep with no sheepdog - the wolf attacks.

    Gun or no gun, I wish I had been there; I would have stopped that f*ck.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    See, this is where we differ. I think that the right to bear arms is fine and all, but there are places it is not appropriate. School being one of those places, for any number of reasons, but the main one is that kids of the age to be attending school are not all that bright about some things. Guns in school would cause alot more problems than they could ever hope to solve.

    If there are crime problems at schools, how about giving a bunch of drunk/stoned partiers guns, we actually hire more security? Guns in the hands of civilians is rarely a realistic solution to a problem.

    Obviously I disagree with your final statment strongly.

    I'm not in favor of handing out pistols to teenage party animals. (Typically you have to be 21 to get a carry permit anyway.) However, teenage party animals are not the only denizens of universities. There are older students such as grad students and people who have finished a tour in the military, going to college on GI benefits. There are professors, administrators and maintenance men.

    I could bring up the fact that we're talking about college students who are theoretically adults here, and the same age as most soldiers...but the extended adolescence that so many adult "kids" enjoy these days is an issue for a different thread.

    IF colleges are going to be citizen-disarmament zones, a point I do not concede but will discuss, then yes they should have FAR more serious security than any presently do.

    There's that little problem of money. Most places have token security, that is more about avoiding liability than actually preventing crime. Serious security that would actually be effective would cost a heck of a lot of money.... tuition would be far more expensive. Fewer people could afford to attend "Security U".

    Allowing responsible adults with carry permits in should have no monetary cost, and according to the studies I've cited about accidental shootings that "cost" is highly improbable also. Again, I'm not talking about arming 19yo potheads, but responsible adults over 21, willing to go through the training and certification to obtain a permit.

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 05-31-09 at 03:32 AM.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Lot's of sheep with no sheepdog - the wolf attacks.

    Gun or no gun, I wish I had been there; I would have stopped that f*ck.
    I doubt that sheepdogs would have deterred this guy from anything. He's obviously insane.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I doubt that sheepdogs would have deterred this guy from anything. He's obviously insane.
    I've dealt with violently insane people before. A sufficiently forceful blow to the brainpan puts them down just like anybody else.

    Sheepdogs in this context would refer to those who would defend others, no matter whether they were cops, security or private citizens. The distinguishing characteristic of the human "sheepdog" is that he ain't just barking, he'll bite too.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    I doubt that sheepdogs would have deterred this guy from anything. He's obviously insane.
    I'm not talking about deterence. I'm talking about stopping him in the act. These people acted like sheep; I would have done something. That's the difference between the sheep and the sheepdogs.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Obviously I disagree with your final statment strongly.

    I'm not in favor of handing out pistols to teenage party animals. (Typically you have to be 21 to get a carry permit anyway.) However, teenage party animals are not the only denizens of universities. There are older students such as grad students and people who have finished a tour in the military, going to college on GI benefits. There are professors, administrators and maintenance men.

    I could bring up the fact that we're talking about college students who are theoretically adults here, and the same age as most soldiers...but the extended adolescence that so many adult "kids" enjoy these days is an issue for a different thread.

    IF colleges are going to be citizen-disarmament zones, a point I do not concede but will discuss, then yes they should have FAR more serious security than any presently do.

    There's that little problem of money. Most places have token security, that is more about avoiding liability than actually preventing crime. Serious security that would actually be effective would cost a heck of a lot of money.... tuition would be far more expensive. Fewer people could afford to attend "Security U".

    Allowing responsible adults with carry permits in should have no monetary cost, and according to the studies I've cited about accidental shootings that "cost" is highly improbable also. Again, I'm not talking about arming 19yo potheads, but responsible adults over 21, willing to go through the training and certification to obtain a permit.

    G.
    Goshin, 21 is, if anything, worse than 19. Those are the kids running to the package store for the 19 year olds. You also have not shown any real likelihood that these kids would reduce the number of school murders, or rapes, or anything.

    What I find sad is when a tragedy like this happens, there are always some gun nuts trying to use it to promote the idea that somehow guns would protect people from random murderers. The reality is that while sad, these on campus murders are incredibly rare. Random bad things happen to people, but we should not make policy based on them

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Goshin, 21 is, if anything, worse than 19. Those are the kids running to the package store for the 19 year olds. You also have not shown any real likelihood that these kids would reduce the number of school murders, or rapes, or anything.

    What I find sad is when a tragedy like this happens, there are always some gun nuts trying to use it to promote the idea that somehow guns would protect people from random murderers. The reality is that while sad, these on campus murders are incredibly rare. Random bad things happen to people, but we should not make policy based on them
    I am sorry you have such a low opinion of people who are theoretically responsible adults. If indeed none of them can be trusted to act responsibly, as you imply, why do we allow them to buy alcohol or drive cars? Neither is essential to college life, and the former actually an impediment. Perhaps we should raise drinking age to 25 and ban all alcohol and cars on college campus. Based on my last visit to a university, I think walking amongst all the teenage drivers was far more dangerous than anything else I'd done that week.

    It's a serious question. If no 21 yr old can be trusted with a gun because they are so irresponsible with alcohol, why do we allow them to buy booze?? Why do we let them own and drive cars, which are involved in more annual deaths than guns??

    Consistency? Lacking I think, with all due respect.

    G.

    Edited to add:

    What I find sad is when a tragedy like this happens, there are always some gun nuts trying to use it to promote the idea that somehow guns would protect people from random murderers.
    I wonder if you would do me the courtesy of assuming I actually wish people to be safer, even if our methodologies differ, and if you would refrain from implying I am a "gun nut" simply because we disagree. I would appreciate it.
    Last edited by Goshin; 05-31-09 at 03:50 AM.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I am sorry you have such a low opinion of people who are theoretically responsible adults. If indeed none of them can be trusted to act responsibly, as you imply, why do we allow them to buy alcohol or drive cars? Neither is essential to college life, and the former actually an impediment. Perhaps we should raise drinking age to 25 and ban all alcohol and cars on college campus. Based on my last visit to a university, I think walking amongst all the teenage drivers was far more dangerous than anything else I'd done that week.

    It's a serious question. If no 21 yr old can be trusted with a gun because they are so irresponsible with alcohol, why do we allow them to buy booze?? Why do we let them own and drive cars, which are involved in more annual deaths than guns??

    Consistency? Lacking I think, with all due respect.

    G.

    Edited to add:



    I wonder if you would do me the courtesy of assuming I actually wish people to be safer, even if our methodologies differ, and if you would refrain from implying I am a "gun nut" simply because we disagree. I would appreciate it.
    Goshin, I am not implying no 21 year old is responsible. I think that enough are that if you put large numbers of them in a small area(Michigan State near where I live has over 50 k students), and let them carry concealed weapons, bad things will result. The problem would outweigh the benefit, I suspect by an order of magnitude. It only takes one or 2, and with as many as you have at a college campus, trouble would be all too likely.

    As I mentioned, I live near Michigan State. Here is a link to an article for you to read: The State News: Cedar Fest a mess. This was an attempt to revive a longstanding MSU traditional party that has resulted in arrests, fires, and police in riot gear most every year for as long as I can remember. A fairly large portion of the people at these parties are over 21.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Redress, while I see the point you are trying to make, I think you're not taking all factors into account.

    One would be that stats indicate permit holders are far more law abiding than the average person. There are a number of reasons for this: you have to have a very clean record to get a permit at all, and you have to keep it very clean if you want to keep your permit. The kind of people who care enough to jump through the hoops and get a permit are probably not going to be the stereotypical party animals.

    Again I ask why this behavior is tolerated on college campii? Why is alcohol allowed if it causes such problems? If you wish to ban guns from campus on the unproven assumption that it would create problems, why not ban alcohol or raise the drinking age to 25 or 30 when booze is proven to be a huge college problem??


    --- I didn't realize how late it was. I have got to go to bed, sorry.
    More debateage tomorrow.


    G.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    At the very least, I agree with Goshin regarding the paralysis and cowardess of those present. I would never have allowed this girl to be decapitated before my very eyes.

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