Page 4 of 23 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 40 of 222

Thread: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

  1. #31
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:45 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,310
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Well, as best I can understand what you're saying, you seem to classify anyone with a carry permit and the willingness to act in defense of others, a "gun nut". If it is not so, then please clarify.

    G.
    No, not a willingness, an eagerness.

  2. #32
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Let me take a wild guess and assume that RinNYC, Redress and TNE would all have been "okay with it", if an armed campus security officer had walked in, seen what was going on, taken careful aim, and shot the perp in the act, saving the victim?

    If so, explain how this differs from a lawfully armed citizen doing the same thing?

    Don't say training and experience. I've been a cop; I was not impressed with most cop's gun skills.


    G.
    You're missing the point by miles now.

    I would have been 100% okay with it if an armed citizen had walked in, seen what was going on, taken careful aim, and shot the perp in the act, saving the victim. However, I think it's logical to conclude that a policy allowing that to happen in that case would also result in a number of excess deaths in other situations that would be larger than the one death prevented here.

    Nobody is worried about experience and trained private citizens doing stupid ****. What we're concerned about is your average retard redneck 19 year old college kid who drinks a 30-rack of natty ice on most tuesday mornings doing stupid ****.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  3. #33
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,158

    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Okay, I've taken a deep breath and calmed down a bit.

    I apologize if I bit anyone's head off.


    This is a subject I am passionate about. As a former LE officer, violent crime is a huge reality to me; the inability of the police to intervene very often, ditto; therefore my position follows obviously from my experiences and viewpoint.

    My own experiences with lawfully armed citizens have been very positive for the most part. Many of the private citizens I've known had more and better training and skills than many cops I've known.

    I see armed citizens as a positive, as a "second chance" for people like this poor girl to maybe survive a horrific assault by an evil scumbag.

    I understand that some don't agree with me. I think that if you examined the facts calmly and without bias, and if you understood the quality of many armed citizens, I at least hope you might change your mind.

    I've simply known too many people who died for lack of someone to defend them, or the means to defend their self, and this troubles me always.

    G.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  4. #34
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,158

    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, not a willingness, an eagerness.

    Redress, as I said, self-defense and defense of others is a subject I am passionate about, because of my life experiences.

    If I came across as eager to be involved in such a situation, where I might have to shoot some perp, then I expressed myself poorly.

    I have seen enough crap to last me a lifetime, believe me. If I live out my days and never find myself in a situation where I have to pull a gun again, that will suit me very well.

    It is the attitude that lawfully armed citizens, with permits and training, are more of a danger to innocents than crazy scumbags like this decapitator, that causes me to get a bit upset. I've posted information that is available to anyone who looks for it, demonstrating that accidental gun deaths are a small risk, and defensive gun uses (even by the most conservative, government-sponsored studies) are far more common than accidental deaths... well the continued resistance to what seems to me to be self-evident is baffling.

    States that have instituted easy-to-get "shall issue" concealed carry permits have experienced a decline in violent crime, and typically no increase in accidental shootings, despite dramatically increasing the number of lawfully concealed weapons in public places.

    In the face of this evidence, can you explain your position to me as something other than just opinion or gut-feelings?

    G.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  5. #35
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,158

    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    You're missing the point by miles now.

    I would have been 100% okay with it if an armed citizen had walked in, seen what was going on, taken careful aim, and shot the perp in the act, saving the victim. However, I think it's logical to conclude that a policy allowing that to happen in that case would also result in a number of excess deaths in other situations that would be larger than the one death prevented here.

    Nobody is worried about experience and trained private citizens doing stupid ****. What we're concerned about is your average retard redneck 19 year old college kid who drinks a 30-rack of natty ice on most tuesday mornings doing stupid ****.
    To my knowlege most states do not allow someone under 21 to have a carry permit. It is so in my state, and I believe in most.

    Most states either don't allow carrying into a bar, or have laws against carrying while intoxicated.

    From my research on the subject, lawful permit holders have an excellent record of obeying the law, including such restrictions as mentioned. The assumption that more people carrying guns lawfully, results in more accidental deaths, simply isn't supported by available statistics.

    Regrettably, the same cannot be said of criminals and crazies, who ignore existing gun laws with depressing regularly and slaughter large numbers of innocents in no-gun-zones.


    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 05-31-09 at 02:20 AM.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  6. #36
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    States that have instituted easy-to-get "shall issue" concealed carry permits have experienced a decline in violent crime, and typically no increase in accidental shootings, despite dramatically increasing the number of lawfully concealed weapons in public places.

    In the face of this evidence, can you explain your position to me as something other than just opinion or gut-feelings?

    G.
    Again, this is a completely different issue. I am a proponent of shall-issue laws. I think it's idiotic that I can't own a handgun in NYC for defense. However, I believe that even though possession of guns by trained and responsible citizens may be a net positive in the majority of scenarios, there are a few particular settings where it may not be. I think that college campuses are one of those few places, due to their peculiar characteristics (namely the fact that they're populated by a whole bunch of young kids getting ****ed up and doing insanely stupid **** 24/7).

    Let me turn the question back on you - do you believe that there are no places at all where gun possession should be banned? Courthouses? Congress? Sporting events?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  7. #37
    Hung like Einstein
    Singularity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    San Diego
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 05:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    1,058

    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Redress, as I said, self-defense and defense of others is a subject I am passionate about, because of my life experiences.

    If I came across as eager to be involved in such a situation, where I might have to shoot some perp, then I expressed myself poorly.

    I have seen enough crap to last me a lifetime, believe me. If I live out my days and never find myself in a situation where I have to pull a gun again, that will suit me very well.

    It is the attitude that lawfully armed citizens, with permits and training, are more of a danger to innocents than crazy scumbags like this decapitator, that causes me to get a bit upset. I've posted information that is available to anyone who looks for it, demonstrating that accidental gun deaths are a small risk, and defensive gun uses (even by the most conservative, government-sponsored studies) are far more common than accidental deaths... well the continued resistance to what seems to me to be self-evident is baffling.

    States that have instituted easy-to-get "shall issue" concealed carry permits have experienced a decline in violent crime, and typically no increase in accidental shootings, despite dramatically increasing the number of lawfully concealed weapons in public places.

    In the face of this evidence, can you explain your position to me as something other than just opinion or gut-feelings?

    G.
    Goshin;

    I'm a pretty liberal fella, so I feel REALLY guilty saying this, but I am a fan of your posts. So please stop being nice and making good points so I can hate you!

    Sincerely,

    - Me

  8. #38
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    To my knowlege most states do not allow someone under 21 to have a carry permit. It is so in my state, and I believe in most.


    Most states either don't allow carrying into a bar
    , or have laws against carrying while intoxicated.
    Wait - so you think that bans on gun possession are always terrible ideas because they don't allow people to protect themselves in dangerous situations, but are okay with laws that ban gun possession in bars, a place where there are ****tons of dangerous situations?

    Seems like the only difference between your position and mine is the list of places we'd ban them.

    Regrettably, the same cannot be said of criminals and crazies, who ignore existing gun laws with depressing regularly and slaughter large numbers of innocents in no-gun-zones.
    But it's okay if they die in a bar?
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  9. #39
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,158

    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Again, this is a completely different issue. I am a proponent of shall-issue laws. I think it's idiotic that I can't own a handgun in NYC for defense. However, I believe that even though possession of guns by trained and responsible citizens may be a net positive in the majority of scenarios, there are a few particular settings where it may not be. I think that college campuses are one of those few places, due to their peculiar characteristics (namely the fact that they're populated by a whole bunch of young kids getting ****ed up and doing insanely stupid **** 24/7).

    Let me turn the question back on you - do you believe that there are no places at all where gun possession should be banned? Courthouses? Congress? Sporting events?

    Ah; okay, I see where you stand on this better now. Thank you for clarifying your position.

    Of course I agree there are places where carrying must be banned. Inside the jailhouse being one obvious one!

    Courthouses...wouldn't do to have the victim's family armed in the same room as the accused.

    Congress? Hm. Considering how a lot of people feel about certain politicians, I could understand that one too.

    Where we differ, I suppose, is in what places should have such bans, or under what set of principles we determine whether X location should be no-guns or not. Based on my viewpoint of the armed citizenry, it is my opinion that no-gun-zones should only be created where there are compelling and overriding reasons why they must be no-carry...such as visitors at the jailhouse... and that otherwise places should be open to lawful carry.

    Such places that are designated as no-carry really ought to have a much higher level of security than is typical on college campuses. Let's face it, there's a lot of crime on campuses (campi?) than never makes the news. Some colleges are practically happy-hunting grounds for rapists. IF they're going to be no-lawful-carry zones, then they need WAY more security. I say this as a father too.

    OK then?



    Addendum:


    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Wait - so you think that bans on gun possession are always terrible ideas because they don't allow people to protect themselves in dangerous situations, but are okay with laws that ban gun possession in bars, a place where there are ****tons of dangerous situations?

    Seems like the only difference between your position and mine is the list of places we'd ban them.



    But it's okay if they die in a bar?
    No, I'm actually not okay with that law, and I'm working with a grassroots organization to change it in my state. I'd prefer to see a law against carrying while intoxicated, just as we have with driving vehicles.




    G.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  10. #40
    Liberal Fascist For Life!


    Redress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Georgia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:45 PM
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    93,310
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Ah; okay, I see where you stand on this better now. Thank you for clarifying your position.

    Of course I agree there are places where carrying must be banned. Inside the jailhouse being one obvious one!

    Courthouses...wouldn't do to have the victim's family armed in the same room as the accused.

    Congress? Hm. Considering how a lot of people feel about certain politicians, I could understand that one too.

    Where we differ, I suppose, is in what places should have such bans, or under what set of principles we determine whether X location should be no-guns or not. Based on my viewpoint of the armed citizenry, it is my opinion that no-gun-zones should only be created where there are compelling and overriding reasons why they must be no-carry...such as visitors at the jailhouse... and that otherwise places should be open to lawful carry.

    Such places that are designated as no-carry really ought to have a much higher level of security than is typical on college campuses. Let's face it, there's a lot of crime on campuses (campi?) than never makes the news. Some colleges are practically happy-hunting grounds for rapists. IF they're going to be no-lawful-carry zones, then they need WAY more security. I say this as a father too.

    OK then?



    Addendum:




    No, I'm actually not okay with that law, and I'm working with a grassroots organization to change it in my state. I'd prefer to see a law against carrying while intoxicated, just as we have with driving vehicles.




    G.
    See, this is where we differ. I think that the right to bear arms is fine and all, but there are places it is not appropriate. School being one of those places, for any number of reasons, but the main one is that kids of the age to be attending school are not all that bright about some things. Guns in school would cause alot more problems than they could ever hope to solve.

    If there are crime problems at schools, how about giving a bunch of drunk/stoned partiers guns, we actually hire more security? Guns in the hands of civilians is rarely a realistic solution to a problem.

Page 4 of 23 FirstFirst ... 2345614 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •