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Thread: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

  1. #11
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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It is the fault of the scumbag who committed the murder. However, I think in many cases the institution bears some responsibility for denying the most effective self-defense tools to those using it's facilities.

    If, for some reason, a facility forbid me to wear safety goggles, and I suffered an eye injury in a lab accident, I would surely sue them as contributing to my injury by their ignorant policy.
    Suffering an eye injury in a manufacturing facility is a foreseeable and rational risk of forbidding safety goggles

    Getting decapitated by a crazed azn in an au bon pain is not a foreseeable and reasonable risk of banning firearms.


    It depends. If, as I said, there were no testicles present (metaphorically speaking), then what weapons might have been handy means nothing.

    If I'd been there, unarmed, I can say with assurance I would have grabbed whatever was handy and attacked the nutcase.

    However, a lot of people don't have the confidence I have to engage in hand-to-hand with a guy with a knife; having a pistol and shooting skills could make a big difference in whether they'd intervene. If some law abiding permit holder had been present and armed, the guy might have been shot dead before he inflicted fatal injury on the girl.

    I don't see how you can say you're 99.99% sure the girl would have died anyway. You'd have to be assuming that no one present would be armed (about 1 person in 50 carries a gun), and/or that the shooter would not respond or not respond effectively (this depends on the person, their character and training, and such speculation is difficult).

    Even if we assume a 50/50 chance (if carry permits were allowed there) that someone present was armed, and a 50/50 chance that such a person would respond effectively, then that would have given the girl a 25% chance... which was better than the effectively-zero chance she got.
    And I'm betting a policy permitting guns on a college campus would lead to more accidental deaths than the number of decapitations by azns in au bon pains that might have otherwise been prevented.

    Or I'm at least assuming that that's VTech's reasoning.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Call me crazy, but I figure someone who wants to kill me is more dangerous than someone who is trying to save me.
    Say that to a family where innocent people died to the "over-reaction" of a gunslinger student trying to take down an assailant.

    The innocent death is no more right because it was done by someone trying to stop someone.

  3. #13
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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Call me crazy, but I figure someone who wants to kill me is more dangerous than someone who is trying to save me.
    The point is that if you DO get killed, it doesn't matter what the person's intentions were.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Getting decapitated by a crazed azn in an au bon pain is not a foreseeable and reasonable risk of banning firearms.
    .

    Sir, tell that to a young lady named Xin Yang.

    Oh, I'm sorry... you can't. She was decapitated at V-tech.





    Quote Originally Posted by The Next Era
    Say that to a family where innocent people died to the "over-reaction" of a gunslinger student trying to take down an assailant.

    The innocent death is no more right because it was done by someone trying to stop someone.
    According to various studies, the total number of people who die in firearm accidents annually is around 1500. Official government statistics on defensive firearm use runs from 60,000 to 200,000 per year...and other studies suggest the number is actually far higher than that due to frequent lack of reporting of incidents were no one was shot, possibly over a million annually.

    This would tend to suggest that the number of probably-violent and possibly-lethal crimes prevented by private firearm carriers is at least 40 to 1, and possibly hundreds to one, vs accidental deaths.

    Auto accidents kill more people annually than firearms, perhaps we should ban the wheel.

    Epic fail.

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 05-31-09 at 01:17 AM.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    The point is that if you DO get killed, it doesn't matter what the person's intentions were.
    You are ignoring a vital fact.

    If someone is aiming at you with intent to kill, they are far more likely to actually kill you than someone who is trying to shoot the scumbag instead.

    As an exercise in this fact, go to a shooting range and decide whether you wish to stand in front of the target, or off to one side, while someone shoots at it!

    This is so obvious I am tempted to accuse you of willful ignorance.

    G.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Sir, tell that to a young lady named Xin Yang.

    Oh, I'm sorry... you can't. She was decapitated at V-tech.
    How is that responsive to my point?

    Are you saying that everything that happens even once is a reasonably foreseeable risk?

    According to various studies, the total number of people who die in firearm accidents annually is around 1500. Official government statistics on defensive firearm use runs from 60,000 to 200,000 per year...and other studies suggest the number is actually far higher than that due to frequent lack of reporting of incidents were no one was shot, possibly over a million annually.

    This would tend to suggest that the number of probably-violent and possibly-lethal crimes prevented by private firearm carriers is at least 40 to 1, and possibly hundreds to one, vs accidental deaths.
    You're comparing the number of deaths from one cause to the number of times that a gun was used defensively in the other. The missing number is the % of that 60-200k figure that would have otherwise involved deaths.

    Epic statistics fail.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    FTW is up with Virginia Tech? Are they pumping out crazy's or what?

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    You are ignoring a vital fact.

    If someone is aiming at you with intent to kill, they are far more likely to actually kill you than someone who is trying to shoot the scumbag instead.

    As an exercise in this fact, go to a shooting range and decide whether you wish to stand in front of the target, or off to one side, while someone shoots at it!

    This is so obvious I am tempted to accuse you of willful ignorance.

    G.
    Holy ****, this is not hard.

    The original point was this:

    The problem with the "pro-gun on campus" crowd is that they always picture the good guys shooting the bad guys, yet they don't even consider that innocent people could be killed by those carrying guns and reacting.
    We're discussing actual outcomes, not intents or probabilities.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Holy ****, this is not hard.

    The original point was this:



    We're discussing actual outcomes, not intents or probabilities.


    Disingenuous. I was discussing actual outcomes in one post above, and demonstrating clearly that firearms are effectively used for defensive purposes at least 40 times more often than accidental deaths, a fact you dismissed by attempting to include a variable that cannot be determined.

    Ignoring data that does not fit your point does not advance your argument.

    You are arguing that it is more dangerous to allow those with permits to carry on campus, than not. I cited the previous V-tech massacre and this decapitation incident as actual outcomes. You have cited no actual outcomes, just your assumptions. I cited studies showing guns are used for defensive purposes MASSIVELY more often than accidental deaths. I have supported my argument; you have not.

    G.
    Last edited by Goshin; 05-31-09 at 01:28 AM.

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  10. #20
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    Re: Horrifying Details Emerge in Hearing on Virginia Tech Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Disingenuous. I was discussing actual outcomes in one post above, and demonstrating clearly that firearms are effectively used for defensive purposes at least 40 times more often than accidental deaths, a fact you dismissed by attempting to include a variable that cannot be determined.

    Ignoring data that does not fit your point does not advance your argument.
    lol, no. I dismissed it because it's ****ty data that doesn't prove anything. It's like comparing the number of people who go bankrupt in NY to the number of people who miss a credit card payment in CA and using that to draw conclusions about which state has more bankruptcies.

    You are arguing that it is more dangerous to allow those with permits to carry on campus, than not. I cited the previous V-tech massacre and this decapitation incident as actual outcomes.
    My bad, I forgot that two individual incidents on one side automatically outweigh hypothetical information about a policy that doesn't actually exist, despite the total lack of evidence that said hypothetical policy would have actually impacted either event.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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