Page 8 of 23 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 222

Thread: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

  1. #71
    Every day I'm hustlin'..
    Lerxst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Nationwide...
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:12 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    15,463

    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Nor do you know if we did violate them.



    So what!? I could reference a slew of equally important people who disagree with them. Are we going to go tit-for-tat with authority figures or are we going to discuss the issue ourselves?



    Okay. I'll just take Rumsfeld's word that we didn't. Isn't differing to authority figures a great way to debate?
    Weight of the testimony (or statements as it were). You go ahead and take Rumsfeld's word for it.

    I don't engage in speculation, nor do I need to, as the article under discussion has all the requisite information needed in order to make an informed conclusion:

    ďWhen we have taken steps that have violated the Geneva Conventions we rightly have been criticized, so as we move forward I think itís important to again live our values, to live the agreements that we have made in the international justice arena and to practice those,Ē Gen. Petraeus said on Fox News Friday afternoon.

    Petraeus made the comment in the context of being asked about the Bush administrationís so-called ďenhanced interrogation techniques.Ē
    You obviously do because mysteriously absent from that article is any clarification as to which prisoners he was referring to. You are speculating that we only used EIT's on those prisoners not covered by the Geneva Convention.
    So, in regards to EIT, Petraeus maintains that we violated the GC, but if one actually references the GC we can see as plain as day that the GC does not apply to anyone who falls under either of the following criteria:

    -Non-uniformed combatants.
    -Combatants that fail to conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

    Since the people in question brazenly and undoubtedly violated BOTH of these GC criteria, we can then conclude that the GC does not apply to them, which brings me back to my original question:

    How can one violate the Geneva Conventions when the Geneva Conventions don't apply to the people in question?
    Do you know how many people we have used EIT's on? How many people we have tortured? What their actual status was? In another thread I posted a list of autopsies and information regarding prisoners who were tortured, abused, and murdered while in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some while being interrogated by the military and the CIA.

    Further there have been many detainees whose status has been overturned, they were released with no charges, and their lawyers are making cases that they were tortured. You have absolutely no way of knowing who was tortured and who wasn't, who was operating as a non-uniformed combatant and who wasn't, none of that. None of us do. I choose to look at all the information and form a reasonable opinion.

    Like I said, I'll take the word of the man who ran the show and most certainly is much more aware of the facts of the matter than any of us. Let's not minimize the impact of what this man says based upon your speculation or even mine.

    General Petraeus said we violated the Geneva Convention.
    Last edited by Lerxst; 05-30-09 at 12:31 AM.
    *insert profound statement here*

  2. #72
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    Are there warcrime laws that do not apply to soldiers on the battlefield?
    Okay, you have asked a question, I will demonstrate how to answer it.

    No, I do not believe so. War crimes are necessarily defined by the GC and a solider (which I would assume is any member of a GC recognized force) is bound by those laws. However, it must be noted that not all acts are conceived of within the GC, and if a soldier were to have engaged such an act, it would stand to reason that he or she was not in violation of the GC, despite the fact that said act could be considered immoral.

    See how that works? You asked a question and I provided you with a reasoned and relevant answer. Now you try it:

    How can one violate the Geneva Conventions when the Geneva Conventions don't apply to the people in question?

  3. #73
    King Of The Dog Pound
    Black Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    South Florida
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    34,529

    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Okay, you have asked a question, I will demonstrate how to answer it.

    No, I do not believe so. War crimes are necessarily defined by the GC and a solider (which I would assume is any member of a GC recognized force) is bound by those laws. However, it must be noted that not all acts are conceived of within the GC, and if a soldier were to have engaged such an act, it would stand to reason that he or she was not in violation of the GC, despite the fact that said act could be considered immoral.

    See how that works? You asked a question and I provided you with a reasoned and relevant answer. Now you try it:

    How can one violate the Geneva Conventions when the Geneva Conventions don't apply to the people in question?
    We can't and we did not.

    I am against torture on the grounds we should never have stooped to the level of the enemy. This however has nothing to do with the Geneva Conventions.

    I think it is nothing but partisan bullc***p. People are so desperate to call the last administration "war criminals" they are looking for excuses to do it. This has literally nothing to do with the Geneva Conventions.

    Not all of the people are doing it because they are partisan. Some just don't know the convention well enough and are guessing based on what others are saying.

    Shame on you!
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #74
    Guru
    ADK_Forever's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Last Seen
    05-07-11 @ 09:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    3,706

    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    How can one violate the Geneva Conventions when the Geneva Conventions don't apply to the people in question?
    Bush did a good job confusing this issue. Note the bolded area below. There is much confusion on if these terrorists fall into the GC's categories so, Article 5 should have been followed as a default. Bush wanted to deprive these prisoners of all rights and due process and went about trying to build that case. He has not confused the experienced military, as Gen. Petraeus has just proved. I assume Petreaus had Obama's permission to speak publicly on this issue.

    Here are the areas of the Geneva Convention BushCo violated:
    Article 4 of the Geneva Convention defines the categories of persons who may be considered as "prisoners of war." According to Article 5, "should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal." No competent tribunal has adjudicated this matter.

    Among the provisions of the Third Geneva Convention regarding humane treatment of prisoners of war, which the U.S. is refusing to apply, are:

    - Article 13: Humane treatment required; No reprisals allowed

    - Article 14: Respect for persons and honour; No gender discrimination

    - Article 16: No discrimination based on race, nationality, religious belief or political opinions

    - Article 17: No physical or mental torture; No coercion to obtain information; Prisoners who decline to provide information may not be threatened, insulted or exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment

    - Article 18: Clothing, articles of personal use, to remain with prisoners

    - Article 20: Evacuation or transfer to be under same conditions as afforded Detaining Power

    - Article 21: Internment in camp allowed; Close confinement prohibited

    - Article 22: Internment in penitentiaries prohibited; Every guarantee of hygiene and healthfulness required

    - Article 25: Condition of quarters must be as favorable for POWs as for the forces of the Detaining Power; Accommodations for habits and customs of POWs required; Protection from dampness, adequate heat and lighting required

    - Article 26: Food must be in sufficient quantity, quality and variety to maintain good health and weight

    - Article 27: Adequate clothing, underwear and footwear required

    - Article 28: Canteens must be installed; Fairly priced food, soap, tobacco and ordinary items must be stocked

    - Articles 29 - 32: Proper hygiene and medical attention, including monthly health inspections, required

    - Articles 34 - 37: Prisoners must be afforded complete latitude in the exercise of religion, including attendance at services, on condition they comply with disciplinary routine

    - Article 38: Provisions for physical, intellectual and recreational activities

    - Article 70: Prisoners must be allowed to write to family, others
    Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
    President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!

  5. #75
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Weight of the testimony (or statements as it were). You go ahead and take Rumsfeld's word for it.
    I was being facetious. My point is that I do not take an authority figure's word for something when I can just easily form my own opinion.

    You obviously do because mysteriously absent from that article is any clarification as to which prisoners he was referring to.

    You are speculating that we only used EIT's on those prisoners not covered by the Geneva Convention.

    Do you know how many people we have used EIT's on? How many people we have tortured? What their actual status was? In another thread I posted a list of autopsies and information regarding prisoners who were tortured, abused, and murdered while in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some while being interrogated by the military and the CIA.

    Further there have been many detainees whose status has been overturned, they were released with no charges, and their lawyers are making cases that they were tortured. You have absolutely no way of knowing who was tortured and who wasn't, who was operating as a non-uniformed combatant and who wasn't, none of that. None of us do. I choose to look at all the information and form a reasonable opinion.
    I understand perfectly what you are saying and perhaps you may be right, but until Petraeus clarifies his position all of this cheerleading is premature.

    Like I said, I'll take the word of the man who ran the show and most certainly is much more aware of the facts of the matter than any of us. Let's not minimize the impact of what this man says based upon your speculation or even mine.

    General Petraeus said we violated the Geneva Convention.
    I did not speculate on or justify ANYTHING. I asked a simple question and got attacked by several posters. If you would have just answered the damn thing the first time I asked it, we could have foregone all this nonsense and agreed that nobody knows either way.

  6. #76
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    12-02-09 @ 05:13 PM
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    4,695

    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Okay, you have asked a question, I will demonstrate how to answer it.

    No, I do not believe so. War crimes are necessarily defined by the GC and a solider (which I would assume is any member of a GC recognized force) is bound by those laws. However, it must be noted that not all acts are conceived of within the GC, and if a soldier were to have engaged such an act, it would stand to reason that he or she was not in violation of the GC, despite the fact that said act could be considered immoral.

    See how that works? You asked a question and I provided you with a reasoned and relevant answer. Now you try it:

    How can one violate the Geneva Conventions when the Geneva Conventions don't apply to the people in question?
    So I take it you have concluded that there were Zero atocities committed against anybody of importance that can be linked back to Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Gonzalas?

    Am I understanding you correctly?

    Were there any atocities committed by anybody other than the troops that were under the Bush administrations command?

  7. #77
    Advisor NDNdancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    On the Edge
    Last Seen
    03-12-12 @ 12:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    523

    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    I think what General Petraeus and others are basing their assertion that we violated the Geneva Conventions are the following:

    - According to Article 5, "should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."

    No competent tribunal adjudicated this. Instead.......

    - Bush granted himself broad sweeping authority under the Patriot Act and used the provisions under that act to declare the prisoners "unlawful combatants" and then to state that the US wasn't bound by the Geneva Conventions. This opened the door for the use of "ehnanced interogation techniques".


    The world was outraged, rightly so, and it took a while for the case to make it's way to the Supremes, but, it eventually did and they ruled against Bush.

    U.S. Shifts Policy on Geneva Conventions
    The Bush administration has agreed to apply the Geneva Conventions to all terrorism suspects in U.S. custody, bowing to the Supreme Court's recent rejection of policies that have imprisoned hundreds for years without trials.

    The Pentagon announced yesterday that it has called on military officials to adhere to the conventions in dealing with al-Qaeda detainees. The administration also has decided that even prisoners held by the CIA in secret prisons abroad must be treated in accordance with international standards, an interpretation that would prohibit prisoners from being subjected to harsh treatment in interrogations, several U.S. officials said.



    In this April 6, 2006, file photo reviewed by U.S. military officials, a guard looks on within the fenced-in grounds of the maximum security prison at Camp Delta, at the Guantanamo Bay U.S. Naval Base, Cuba. An investigation into three apparent suicides at the prison has found that other detainees may have helped the men hang themselves or were planning to kill themselves too, according to court papers filed late Friday, July 8, 2006, in Washington. (Brennan Linsley - AP)


    The developments underscored how the administration has been forced to retreat from its long-standing position that President Bush be given extensive leeway to determine how to interrogate and prosecute terrorism suspects captured in Iraq, in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Until recently, the White House and Defense Department have pursued such anti-terrorism policies with little interference from Congress and the courts, but that has begun to change.

    Since 2002, the administration has contended that the Geneva Conventions would be respected as a matter of policy but that they did not apply by law to terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, or in U.S. military custody elsewhere. Administration officials have voiced concern that the conventions are too vague and could expose the military to second-guessing about appropriate treatment.

    But the Supreme Court rejected that view in a 5 to 3 decision last month, ruling that a Yemeni detainee at Guantanamo Bay could not be tried by a special military commission established by the Bush administration. The court held that the commissions violate U.S. law and the Geneva Conventions.

    More than 400 such detainees are being held at Guantanamo Bay. None has been brought to trial, and some say they are innocent civilians mistakenly swept up in U.S. military raids.

    Administration officials indicated that they had little choice but to act in the aftermath of that Supreme Court ruling. They disputed the suggestion that the new Pentagon policy represents significant change, because the administration already said that it treats detainees humanely.

    "We strongly believe that terrorists picked up off the battlefield -- who don't represent a nation, revel in killing the innocent, and refuse to wear uniforms -- do not qualify for protections under Geneva," White House counselor Dan Bartlett said. "Five members of the Supreme Court disagreed. As the president said, we will comply with the ruling."

    The new Pentagon policy -- detailed in a July 7 memo from Deputy Defense Secretary Gordon England -- called on defense officials to ensure that military personnel adhere to Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, which provides a base-line level of protections for all terrorism suspects picked up on the battlefield.

    The practical impact of the policy is uncertain. Legislation approved last year over Bush's objections bars the use of cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment against detainees, approximating what is in the Geneva Conventions. Some military lawyers, however, said they think the memo will remove a certain ambiguity about what military interrogators may do in the name of extracting information.

    Many involved in the debate, especially those representing detainees and military lawyers who have fought the administration's policy, see symbolic significance in the new order, coming as it did after five years of intense battling within the administration over the applicability of the Geneva Conventions.

    Bush declared in the months after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon that al-Qaeda members were not entitled to the formal protections of the Geneva Conventions, siding with White House and Defense Department lawyers over objections from the State Department. But he said the prisoners would be treated humanely.
    The upshot, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that we were in violation of the Geneva Conventions and article 3.

    High Court Rejects Detainee Tribunals
    5 to 3 Ruling Curbs President's Claim Of Wartime Power

    By Charles Lane
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Friday, June 30, 2006; Page A01

    The Supreme Court yesterday struck down the military commissions President Bush established to try suspected members of al-Qaeda, emphatically rejecting a signature Bush anti-terrorism measure and the broad assertion of executive power upon which the president had based it.

    Brushing aside administration pleas not to second-guess the commander in chief during wartime, a five-justice majority ruled that the commissions, which were outlined by Bush in a military order on Nov. 13, 2001, were neither authorized by federal law nor required by military necessity, and ran afoul of the Geneva Conventions.
    Here's the Department of Defense memo outlining every branch to comply with Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...evaconvdoc.pdf

    Just because Bush tried to use the Nixon defense, doesn't mean he or others can't be held responsible for those years between the beginning of the war and the SCOTUS ruling.

    Patraeus is right. We did violate the Geneva Conventions.
    I am a Tiki Bar Tarte, do you really think you can Tango with me?!?
    "A Nation is not defeated, until the hearts of it's women lay on the ground" Tsitisisis (Cheyenne) saying

  8. #78
    Advisor NDNdancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    On the Edge
    Last Seen
    03-12-12 @ 12:47 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    523

    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Here's a really nice timeline, with links that I keep handy.

    Guantanamo Bay Timeline (washingtonpost.com)
    I am a Tiki Bar Tarte, do you really think you can Tango with me?!?
    "A Nation is not defeated, until the hearts of it's women lay on the ground" Tsitisisis (Cheyenne) saying

  9. #79
    activist professor Inferno's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Tipping Velvet
    Last Seen
    07-01-09 @ 02:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    2,017

    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Sorry, I wasn't aware that you sheepishly differ to authority figures in matters of such import.



    Iím not justifying anything. I just asked a question. Why canít you answer it?
    I think that we were wrong in torturing anyone. I frankly don't care if it is inside outside above or below the Geneva Convention. We are supposed to better than that. The question as to whether this is outside the Geneva Convention is not really answerable in this. Who know whether we tortured Iraqi military or not. Can you say for certain that we did not. No one knows. I think Petraeus has pretty good odds of knowing if we broke with the Geneva Convention or not. When you can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that we didn't torture any military personal then maybe the discussion is worth having. I will side with Petraeus until i know for sure that this is the case.

    Torture of anyone is despicable. I think that anyone that agrees with the policey of torture is despicable as well. The justification of said torture under any circumstances is disgusting and Un-American. I think the entire Bush administration should be brought to trial. Not here but before an international court. I think the families of any military member that was wounded or killed in Iraq should sue the US government for wrongful death or wrongful injury. I believe they were sent there on a pack of conjured lies by the administration.

    Torture is wrong whether against the Geneva Convention or not. We have sunk to as low as we have ever claimed the so called enemy is. We should be embarrassed by that 8 years.

    When you can come up with the proof that Petraeus is wrong let me know.
    Democracy is the road to socialism. Karl Marx
    Life member NY city Fisting Club!
    I am Zoochie Purple Quivering Ghost Bear a Tiki Bar Tarte, you want some of my Panties.

  10. #80
    activist professor Inferno's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Tipping Velvet
    Last Seen
    07-01-09 @ 02:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Liberal
    Posts
    2,017

    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Sorry, I wasn't aware that you sheepishly differ to authority figures in matters of such import.



    Iím not justifying anything. I just asked a question. Why canít you answer it?
    I think that we were wrong in torturing anyone. I frankly don't care if it is inside outside above or below the Geneva Convention. We are supposed to better than that. The question as to whether this is outside the Geneva Convention is not really answerable in this. Who know whether we tortured Iraqi military or not. Can you say for certain that we did not. No one knows. I think Petraeus has pretty good odds of knowing if we broke with the Geneva Convention or not. When you can prove beyond a shadow of doubt that we didn't torture any military personal then maybe the discussion is worth having. I will side with Petraeus until i know for sure that this is the case.

    Torture of anyone is despicable. I think that anyone that agrees with the policey of torture is despicable as well. The justification of said torture under any circumstances is disgusting and Un-American. I think the entire Bush administration should be brought to trial. Not here but before an international court. I think the families of any military member that was wounded or killed in Iraq should sue the US government for wrongful death or wrongful injury. I believe they were sent there on a pack of conjured lies by the administration.

    Torture is wrong whether against the Geneva Convention or not. We have sunk to as low as we have ever claimed the so called enemy is. We should be embarrassed by that 8 years.

    When you can come up with the proof that Petraeus is wrong let me know.
    Democracy is the road to socialism. Karl Marx
    Life member NY city Fisting Club!
    I am Zoochie Purple Quivering Ghost Bear a Tiki Bar Tarte, you want some of my Panties.

Page 8 of 23 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •