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Thread: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    There is no who.
    Well obviously there is a "WHO" and he was Bush.

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    And who decides these people don't apply to the geneva convention?
    The Geneva Conventions have already answered that question:

    Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:

    Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces.

    Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:

    -that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
    -that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
    -that of carrying arms openly;
    -that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. [1]


    Because there are people of intelligence that say they should apply and there are people of intelligence that say the shouldn't apply.

    Let the lawyers fight it out, which is exactly what might happen.
    I'm not talking about what should be, I'm talking about what is currently factual. It is a fact that the people in question do not garner recognition from the GC.

    [1] - [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention]Third Geneva Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I don't know that we didn't violate the Geneva Convention. We have the CENTCOM ****ing commander saying we violated the Geneva Convention, John McCain said we violated the Geneva Convention, we have federal judges saying we violated the Geneva Convention, the Supreme Court said we violated the Geneva Convention, and we have dozens of governments around the world saying we violated the Geneva Convention.

    I'm going to go ahead and take Petraeus' word that we violated the Geneva Convention. I'll let you speculate as to what he is specifically talking about.
    You know, I understand all that, but I haven't seen anybody articulate what specific article we did violate. I'd like to know.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The Geneva Conventions have already answered that question:

    Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:

    Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces.

    Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:

    -that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
    -that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
    -that of carrying arms openly;
    -that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. [1]




    I'm not talking about what should be, I'm talking about what is currently factual. It is a fact that the people in question do not garner recognition from the GC.

    [1] - Third Geneva Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    And that is according to Bush. There are others who have interpreted as different. What makes bush right and others wrong?

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    And that is according to Bush. There are others who have interpreted as different. What makes bush right and others wrong?
    Bush didn't write those articles. Those aren't his opinions. Those are what the Geneva Conventions actually say.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Bush didn't write those articles. Those aren't his opinions. Those are what the Geneva Conventions actually say.
    Yes, and there are people who feel differently about whether they fall under legal combatants or illegal combatants.

    Try looking those up. Some resistant members DID carry arms openly that is how they were caught.

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    I think that there is an assumption by some on this forum that they know exactly what Petraeus was referring to when he made his statements. The article says Petraeus himself did not specify.

    Rather than continue to escalate this to an unfriendly level of argument, I'll offer this. I'd like to know exactly what Petraeus was referring to. My personal opinion on this is that based upon so much other available information, Petraeus is simply confirming what many others have already said and ruled in court.

    But I'd like him to be more specific.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Yes, and there are people who feel differently about whether they fall under legal combatants or illegal combatants.

    Try looking those up.
    So they feel differently. Can they prove that the articles say something other than what they actually say? Combatants must meet ALL 4 of those requirements. How hard is that to interpret?
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    Bush didn't write those articles. Those aren't his opinions. Those are what the Geneva Conventions actually say.
    I think the issue here however is twofold:
    • The manner in which these prisoners were classified. There are terrible discrepancies there.
    • Why did our government ever make the argument for denying them protections under the Geneva Convention in the first place?


    The only real reason the Bush administration made the arguments was to facilitate military tribunals and torture.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Why so serious?

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
    I seem to think when you are wrong you are wrong. If the troops stopped following wrong orders there would not be a problem.
    "Wrong" is a subjective term.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

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