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Thread: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

  1. #191
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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Bush did a good job confusing this issue. Note the bolded area below. There is much confusion on if these terrorists fall into the GC's categories so, Article 5 should have been followed as a default. Bush wanted to deprive these prisoners of all rights and due process and went about trying to build that case. He has not confused the experienced military, as Gen. Petraeus has just proved. I assume Petreaus had Obama's permission to speak publicly on this issue.

    Here are the areas of the Geneva Convention BushCo violated:
    Your farcical arguments are only compelling to those who are perhaps ignorant of your attempts to leave out some pertinent FACTS.

    First Article ONE requires:

    Article 1
    The High Contracting Parties undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances.


    Terrorists do not represent a Nation and certainly are not a High Contracting Party.

    Article 2 declares:

    Article 2
    In addition to the provisions which shall be implemented in peacetime, the present Convention shall apply to all cases of declared war or of any other armed conflict which may arise between two or more of the High Contracting Parties, even if the state of war is not recognized by one of them.

    The Convention shall also apply to all cases of partial or total occupation of the territory of a High Contracting Party, even if the said occupation meets with no armed resistance.

    Although one of the Powers in conflict may not be a party to the present Convention, the Powers who are parties thereto shall remain bound by it in their mutual relations. They shall furthermore be bound by the Convention in relation to the said Power, if the latter accepts and applies the provisions thereof.


    Terrorists do not accept nor do they apply Geneva Conventions.

    But within article 4 is the REAL kicker:

    Article 4

    Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.

    Nationals of a State which is not bound by the Convention are not protected by it. Nationals of a neutral State who find themselves in the territory of a belligerent State, and nationals of a co-belligerent State, shall not be regarded as protected persons while the State of which they are nationals has normal diplomatic representation in the State in whose hands they are.

    The provisions of Part II are, however, wider in application, as defined in Article 13.

    Persons protected by the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Wounded and Sick in Armed Forces in the Field of August 12, 1949, or by the Geneva Convention for the Amelioration of the Condition of Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea of August 12, 1949, or by the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War of August 12, 1949, shall not be considered as protected persons within the meaning of the present Convention.


    So looking beyond the desperate assertions and bumper sticker talking points, terrorist non-uniformed enemy combatants of no national origin are NOT protected by any Geneva Conventions.

    Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War

    But again, let’s look at the definition of torture by the United Nations;

    Article 1 of the Convention defines torture as:

    Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

    – Convention Against Torture, Article 1.1

    Actions which fall short of torture may still constitute cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment under Article 16.


    Nothing regarding our handling of these specific detainees meets the definition as defined above without desperate and illogical contortions.

    Basically, what we have here is a political ideology that argues that political opponents can be impugned in the court of public opinion for purely partisan political purposes; is this the level we want to reduce the politics in this nation to?

    Logical and thoughtful people would argue that it is not. But alas, there is nothing that can be considered thoughtful or logical about the current desperate desire to impugn the Bush administration.

  2. #192
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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Chris's Commons: General Ricardo Sanchez Calls for a Truth Commission to investigate torture and prisoner abuse

    Monday, June 1, 2009
    General Ricardo Sanchez Calls for a Truth Commission to investigate torture and prisoner abuse
    Over the weekend during an event in New York City, former commander of coalition forces in Iraq, Ricardo Sanchez, called for a commission to investigate torture and other abuses.



    The General described the failures at all levels of civilian and military command that led to the abuses in Iraq, "and that is why I support the formation of a truth commission."

    The General went on to say that, "during my time in Iraq there was not one instance of actionable intelligence that came out of these interrogation techniques."

    I interviewed General Sanchez after the event and asked him to elaborate on why he felt the US needed such a commission. "For the American people to really know what happened, " he replied, "...this was an institutional failure, a personal failure on the part of many...."

    "If we do not find out what happened," continued the General, "then we are doomed to repeat it."


    So? TD this is the former commander of coalition forces in Iraq, Ricardo Sanchez, who is calling for a commission to investigate torture and other abuses.

    Do you support this commanders postition reguarding torture and it's benifits?

    Which were none.

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    How can one violate the Geneva Concentions when the Geneva Conventions don't apply to the people in question?
    You can't, but any combatant who's status is in doubt is covered under the conventions until a competent military tribunal can make a final ruling on the protection status.

    Even if the final ruling is that they are not protected by the accords, during that interim period before the tribunal's ruling, they are to be treated according to the conventions.

    Thus, even if they are ultimately determined to be illegal combatants, they still enjoy a temporary coverage under the conventions until that final determination can be made.

    The military tribunals were originally withheld from many of the detainees on the assumption that there was no question/doubt that they were not protected by the accords. Any actions that would be considered violations of the conventions during that time are true violations because the status had not been fully determined, even if that final determination was that they are not protected by the conventions.
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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    Agreed! Not to mention that as a signature to the Body of Principles for the Protection of All Persons under Any Form of Detention or Imprisonment
    adopted by United Nations General Assembly resolution 43/173 of 9 December 1988...

    There are many more principles than that. But, that one alone tells you that we have an obligation to treat "ALL" prisoners, of any kind, humanely!
    I guess you missed this part of the Principles:

    Scope of the Body of Principles
    These principles apply for the protection of all persons under any form of detention or imprisonment.

    Use of Terms

    For the purposes of the Body of Principles:

    (a) "Arrest" means the act of apprehending a person for the alleged commission of an offence or by the action of an authority;


    Doesn't apply here; these were people apprehended either on the battlefield and suspected of terrorist acts, at terrorist training camps or in the heat of a fire fight.

    (b) "Detained person" means any person deprived of personal liberty except as a result of conviction for an offence;

    Doesn't apply; no one was "detained:" as a result of a conviction.

    (c) "Imprisoned person" means any person deprived of personal liberty as a result of conviction for an offence;

    Doesn't apply; no one was "imprisoned:" as a result of a conviction or an offence.

    (d) "Detention" means the condition of detained persons as defined above;

    (e) "Imprisonment" means the condition of imprisoned persons as defined above;

    (f) The words "a judicial or other authority" means a judicial or other authority under the law whose status and tenure should afford the strongest possible guarantees of competence, impartiality and independence.

    But then again, water boarding as was conducted by the US on a few of these detainees for the purpose of saving lives, does not fit the definition of torture under UN guidelines either.

    So if we decide to use standard criminal law and habeas corpus as it relates to these dangerous individuals of which there is no "traditional" criminal proof and end up releasing them back to where they came and they commit more heinous murders against us, are you okay with that?

    The reason Obama has followed the Bush doctrine is because he knows these REALITIES and now, rather than just being a candidate, if these thugs go free because of some false notions about what is meant by "detainees" they do murder again, as President he will be responsible.

    What Obama is finding out is that it is much easier hurling spurious campaign rhetoric when you are merely a campaigner than it is actually being the President and having the lives of your citizens as your personal responsibility.

    You on the other hand are completely free to continue hurling your false spurious venom at those you happen to disagree with politically. It’s your right; just remember that when you do so in a vacuum of the FACTS and REALITY, your BS will be called.

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    YouTube - WH Torture Program's Purpose: To Find A Justification For War In Iraq Before War Began Pt 2 of 2


    TD I tried to find a link that supports your position...but they don't exist.
    I try to find links with REALITY that would support yours; but they of course do not exist.

    But then, since when did FACTS or REALITY ever have anything to do with your hyper partisan rants right?


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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    Chris's Commons: General Ricardo Sanchez Calls for a Truth Commission to investigate torture and prisoner abuse

    Monday, June 1, 2009
    General Ricardo Sanchez Calls for a Truth Commission to investigate torture and prisoner abuse
    Over the weekend during an event in New York City, former commander of coalition forces in Iraq, Ricardo Sanchez, called for a commission to investigate torture and other abuses.



    The General described the failures at all levels of civilian and military command that led to the abuses in Iraq, "and that is why I support the formation of a truth commission."

    The General went on to say that, "during my time in Iraq there was not one instance of actionable intelligence that came out of these interrogation techniques."

    I interviewed General Sanchez after the event and asked him to elaborate on why he felt the US needed such a commission. "For the American people to really know what happened, " he replied, "...this was an institutional failure, a personal failure on the part of many...."

    "If we do not find out what happened," continued the General, "then we are doomed to repeat it."


    So? TD this is the former commander of coalition forces in Iraq, Ricardo Sanchez, who is calling for a commission to investigate torture and other abuses.

    Do you support this commanders postition reguarding torture and it's benifits?

    Which were none.
    I see you are having difficulty distinguishing the illegal acts at Abu Ghraib where the facilitators of that ILLEGAL activity were prosecuted and the debate on the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo and water boarding.

    While I am hardly surprised by this, you do need to get out of this myopic and desperate partisan view and become more informed.

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I see you are having difficulty distinguishing the illegal acts at Abu Ghraib where the facilitators of that ILLEGAL activity were prosecuted and the debate on the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo and water boarding.

    While I am hardly surprised by this, you do need to get out of this myopic and desperate partisan view and become more informed.
    The post you are commenting on has nothing to do with me. So stop the "hyperpartisian whining" please.
    Do you care to comment on Sanchezes views in reguards to the amount of actionable intelligence that was gained from torturing people?

    I did start a thread on the subject.

  8. #198
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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I see you don't do logic on the weekends.

    Anyway, do you know a guy named Truth Detector?
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    "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen PetraeusKnock off the trolling and baiting, Lerxst.
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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    The post you are commenting on has nothing to do with me. So stop the "hyperpartisian whining" please.
    Do you care to comment on Sanchezes views in reguards to the amount of actionable intelligence that was gained from torturing people?

    I did start a thread on the subject.
    What part of this statement do you NOT get?

    The General went on to say that, "during my time in Iraq there was not one instance of actionable intelligence that came out of these interrogation techniques."

    Are you suggesting that under General Sanchez's watch his troops conducted water boarding on their prisoners?

    The notion that my comments are “hyper partisan” is more of the typical emotional hysterics you display when debating; but staying within the premise of the THREAD topic, your desperate attempts certainly are OFF the topic.

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    Re: "US violated Geneva Conventions" - Gen Petraeus

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    What part of this statement do you NOT get?

    The General went on to say that, "during my time in Iraq there was not one instance of actionable intelligence that came out of these interrogation techniques."

    Are you suggesting that under General Sanchez's watch his troops conducted water boarding on their prisoners?

    The notion that my comments are “hyper partisan” is more of the typical emotional hysterics you display when debating; but staying within the premise of the THREAD topic, your desperate attempts certainly are OFF the topic.
    Didn't the General's time in Iraq emcompass almost the entire time that this rampant rightous torture was taking place? Wouldn't the General have first hand knowledge of exactly how much "actionable intelligence" was gained from these unlawful techniques? DURING HIS TIME IN IRAQ???
    Last edited by goldendog; 06-01-09 at 05:53 PM.

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