• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

Prove it Levin.... release the memos, un-redacted.
 
sazerac said:
Prove it Levin.... release the memos, un-redacted.
Click to expand...

That seems to be what every one wants on both sides. So touching to see people come together...
 
Truth Detector said:
There you go folks; another compelling Liberal argument to say the least; thank you for illustrating it so well.
Click to expand...

What you find it strange that I don't have to go into some long winded blathering explanation as to why Cheney is lying through his teeth?

I know truth when I see it and I know lies when I hear them.
 
zimmer said:
That Levin! LOL

I was worried for a second and thought you meant Mark Levin.

Snap Dude! You, meant this Levin! LOL... Obvious Child's Grand Ma...
The political hack from MI.

zimmer-albums-conservitoons-picture66-good-news-democrat-style.jpg


.
Click to expand...

You can leave the irrelevant hyper partisan nonsense at the door. Thanks.
 
Truth Detector said:
There you go folks; another compelling Liberal argument to say the least; thank you for illustrating it so well.
Click to expand...

Truth Detector said:
So one of the biggest morons and liars sitting in the Congress today should be taken at his word? You make me laugh.
Click to expand...

Hello pot? :roll:

There you go folks; another compelling <insert whatever you want here> argument to say the least; thank you for illustrating it so well.

I won't insult the conservatives.
 
Last edited:
Redress said:
Isn't it what us liberals have been asking for all along?
Click to expand...

I know, isn't it silly how now it's very chic to demand the government to declassify the memos and undermine national security!

:2razz:
 
Lerxst said:
I know, isn't it silly how now it's very chic to demand the government to declassify the memos and undermine national security!

:2razz:
Click to expand...

Sort of the same way it's now very chic among democrats to keep them classified despite just 6 months ago screaming that they wanted everything declassified...
 
jallman said:
Sort of the same way it's now very chic among democrats to keep them classified despite just 6 months ago screaming that they wanted everything declassified...
Click to expand...

I know right? My point was that it's pretty disingenuous of our politicians and people on this forum in general to claim that releasing these memos will undermine national security when clearly it's nothing more than political stage play.

I say release them and let's see if the country blows up.
 
jallman said:
Sort of the same way it's now very chic among democrats to keep them classified despite just 6 months ago screaming that they wanted everything declassified...
Click to expand...

It was my understanding that the reason the memos have not been released yet is they are tied into a court case. I believe, if I understand correctly, that president Obama can overrule that, and hopefully he will, but there is no proof that I have seen that the holdup on these is political.
 
I hope the memos are released, however, I do find it amusing the same people that cried out they should be classified and would hurt the U.S. if shown, are now saying they should be released now that there is a Dem president.

And yes, it is equally amusing to see those that wanted it released to now say they want it to stay classified.
 
Uhm, fo ADK, and the others like Will and such ready to announce the end of the Former Veep's credibility...

If these memo's are so clear as to show him to be a liar, why not show them to the world?

That's just... ya know, common sense.
 
Redress said:
It was my understanding that the reason the memos have not been released yet is they are tied into a court case. I believe, if I understand correctly, that president Obama can overrule that, and hopefully he will, but there is no proof that I have seen that the holdup on these is political.
Click to expand...

They've been used by both sides in a myriad of ways I think. Demanding they be released or demanding they be made public...depending on whose saying it and when it's really a political football if you ask me. Both teams want to use it to score points.

However, I'm with you. Release them. Always been my position. Let's air it out and see if our country is taken over by Al Qaeda.
 
MrVicchio said:
Uhm, fo ADK, and the others like Will and such ready to announce the end of the Former Veep's credibility...

If these memo's are so clear as to show him to be a liar, why not show them to the world?

That's just... ya know, common sense.
Click to expand...

I think they will eventually. What is going to be really cool is seeing whether or not Cheney or Levin are actually vindicated. My bet is, that since both of them are making such lighting rod statements they fall into some ambiguous no mans land where there is a major headline, we read them, and go "WTF????...those didn't really say anything one way or the other."
 
Lerxst said:
I think they will eventually. What is going to be really cool is seeing whether or not Cheney or Levin are actually vindicated. My bet is, that since both of them are making such lighting rod statements they fall into some ambiguous no mans land where there is a major headline, we read them, and go "WTF????...those didn't really say anything one way or the other."
Click to expand...

I think we'll find that Cheney is partially right, not as right as he might think he is, and Levin is partially right, but nearly so as some here claim he is.


So yeah... ****, we agree almost on something...

WAIT!

They'll show Cheney was right and Levin is a lying stooge!

There, order to the Universe is restored.
 
It seems to me that Cheney said essentially "use of the techniques uncovered useful information and saved lives."

Levin says "the documents say nothing about how many lives were saved."

He created a straw man argument that he could easily knock down.

What he certainly didn't say was that the information uncovered did not prevent any attacks. He also didn't say that the info obtained wasn't obtained through EIT's.

Think there's a reason he didn't make those statements?

The Michigan Democrat told the crowd that the two CIA documents that Cheney wants released "say nothing about numbers of lives saved, nor do the documents connect acquisition of valuable intelligence to the use of abusive techniques."
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
buck said:
It seems to me that Cheney said essentially "use of the techniques uncovered useful information and saved lives."

Levin says "the documents say nothing about how many lives were saved."

He created a straw man argument that he could easily knock down.

What he certainly didn't say was that the information uncovered did not prevent any attacks. He also didn't say that the info obtained wasn't obtained through EIT's.

Think there's a reason he didn't make those statements?
Click to expand...

here, let me highlite what you quoted:

Carl Levin said:
nor do the documents connect acquisition of valuable intelligence to the use of abusive techniques.
Click to expand...

That is a pretty direct statement that the documents do not state that there is any proof that torture worked.
 
Redress said:
here, let me highlite what you quoted:



That is a pretty direct statement that the documents do not state that there is any proof that torture worked.
Click to expand...

Obviously not having seen all the information I don't know what is contained.

the only thing you can take from that comment is that the documents he specified he reviewed do not state the info was obtained from EIT. For all we know, the documents might not state how the info was obtained, period.

However, you can't assume from that comment that the info wasn't obtained from EIT.

He easily could have specified that the info wasn't obtained from EIT. I think it's very telling that he didn't.

He also didn't specify that attacks weren't prevented.

He only stated the documents do not specify how many lives were saved - which is stupid. I would hardly expect a document talking about intelligence that was obtained to specify the number of lives saved due to that info.

Overall it's a very weak and cagey quote from Levin.
 
buck said:
Obviously not having seen all the information I don't know what is contained.

the only thing you can take from that comment is that the documents he specified he reviewed do not state the info was obtained from EIT. For all we know, the documents might not state how the info was obtained, period.

However, you can't assume from that comment that the info wasn't obtained from EIT.

He easily could have specified that the info wasn't obtained from EIT. I think it's very telling that he didn't.

He also didn't specify that attacks weren't prevented.

He only stated the documents do not specify how many lives were saved - which is stupid. I would hardly expect a document talking about intelligence that was obtained to specify the number of lives saved due to that info.

Overall it's a very weak and cagey quote from Levin.
Click to expand...

Mr. Levin is a bright guy. No one except a few idiot hyper-partisan posters have ever suggested otherwise. When he states, clearly, that the documents do not "connect" valuable intelligence to torture, he is not trying to be clever, he is being clear. At most he is suggesting that nothing is proven, which is probably true, but that based on the evidence in those documents, you cannot say that torture worked.
 
Redress said:
When he states, clearly, that the documents do not "connect" valuable intelligence to torture, he is not trying to be clever, he is being clear. At most he is suggesting that nothing is proven, which is probably true, but that based on the evidence in those documents, you cannot say that torture worked.
Click to expand...

It's admirable that you believe he is not trying to be clever, but since he's a politician - I highly doubt it's a correct statement. Politicians on both sides choose their words very carefully. He easily could have been much more direct. he made a choice not to be. There is a reason he took that path.

However, you and I are pretty close to agreement.
 
So let me ask the conservatives something.

When people accused Bush and Cheney of Lying and to release classified documents that was wrong to conservatives because it could jeopardize national security.

But now that a Dem president is in charge they think those same classified memos should be released even though it could jeopardize national security?

At least keep consistent.
 
MrVicchio said:
Uhm, fo ADK, and the others like Will and such ready to announce the end of the Former Veep's credibility...

If these memo's are so clear as to show him to be a liar, why not show them to the world?

That's just... ya know, common sense.
Click to expand...

You can be so clueless and obtuse at times. If those docs could show BushCo's use of illegal torture was so productive they would have released them when they were in office. Since they didn't, and so much was at stake, there must be a very good reason why they still have not been declassified. And Dickie is using that to his advantage. But, sooner or later they will be declassified and we'll see for ourselves that Cheney was lying.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom