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Thread: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

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    Re: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Uhm, fo ADK, and the others like Will and such ready to announce the end of the Former Veep's credibility...

    If these memo's are so clear as to show him to be a liar, why not show them to the world?

    That's just... ya know, common sense.
    I think they will eventually. What is going to be really cool is seeing whether or not Cheney or Levin are actually vindicated. My bet is, that since both of them are making such lighting rod statements they fall into some ambiguous no mans land where there is a major headline, we read them, and go "WTF????...those didn't really say anything one way or the other."
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I think they will eventually. What is going to be really cool is seeing whether or not Cheney or Levin are actually vindicated. My bet is, that since both of them are making such lighting rod statements they fall into some ambiguous no mans land where there is a major headline, we read them, and go "WTF????...those didn't really say anything one way or the other."
    I think we'll find that Cheney is partially right, not as right as he might think he is, and Levin is partially right, but nearly so as some here claim he is.


    So yeah... ****, we agree almost on something...

    WAIT!

    They'll show Cheney was right and Levin is a lying stooge!

    There, order to the Universe is restored.
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    Re: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    There is something in them that keeps them classified, and he knows it.
    Yes, probably their potential to embarks the current administration.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 05-29-09 at 09:40 PM.
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    Re: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

    It seems to me that Cheney said essentially "use of the techniques uncovered useful information and saved lives."

    Levin says "the documents say nothing about how many lives were saved."

    He created a straw man argument that he could easily knock down.

    What he certainly didn't say was that the information uncovered did not prevent any attacks. He also didn't say that the info obtained wasn't obtained through EIT's.

    Think there's a reason he didn't make those statements?

    The Michigan Democrat told the crowd that the two CIA documents that Cheney wants released "say nothing about numbers of lives saved, nor do the documents connect acquisition of valuable intelligence to the use of abusive techniques."
    Last edited by buck; 05-29-09 at 09:51 PM.

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    Re: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    It seems to me that Cheney said essentially "use of the techniques uncovered useful information and saved lives."

    Levin says "the documents say nothing about how many lives were saved."

    He created a straw man argument that he could easily knock down.

    What he certainly didn't say was that the information uncovered did not prevent any attacks. He also didn't say that the info obtained wasn't obtained through EIT's.

    Think there's a reason he didn't make those statements?
    here, let me highlite what you quoted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Levin
    nor do the documents connect acquisition of valuable intelligence to the use of abusive techniques.
    That is a pretty direct statement that the documents do not state that there is any proof that torture worked.

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    Re: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    here, let me highlite what you quoted:



    That is a pretty direct statement that the documents do not state that there is any proof that torture worked.
    Obviously not having seen all the information I don't know what is contained.

    the only thing you can take from that comment is that the documents he specified he reviewed do not state the info was obtained from EIT. For all we know, the documents might not state how the info was obtained, period.

    However, you can't assume from that comment that the info wasn't obtained from EIT.

    He easily could have specified that the info wasn't obtained from EIT. I think it's very telling that he didn't.

    He also didn't specify that attacks weren't prevented.

    He only stated the documents do not specify how many lives were saved - which is stupid. I would hardly expect a document talking about intelligence that was obtained to specify the number of lives saved due to that info.

    Overall it's a very weak and cagey quote from Levin.

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    Re: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Obviously not having seen all the information I don't know what is contained.

    the only thing you can take from that comment is that the documents he specified he reviewed do not state the info was obtained from EIT. For all we know, the documents might not state how the info was obtained, period.

    However, you can't assume from that comment that the info wasn't obtained from EIT.

    He easily could have specified that the info wasn't obtained from EIT. I think it's very telling that he didn't.

    He also didn't specify that attacks weren't prevented.

    He only stated the documents do not specify how many lives were saved - which is stupid. I would hardly expect a document talking about intelligence that was obtained to specify the number of lives saved due to that info.

    Overall it's a very weak and cagey quote from Levin.
    Mr. Levin is a bright guy. No one except a few idiot hyper-partisan posters have ever suggested otherwise. When he states, clearly, that the documents do not "connect" valuable intelligence to torture, he is not trying to be clever, he is being clear. At most he is suggesting that nothing is proven, which is probably true, but that based on the evidence in those documents, you cannot say that torture worked.

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    Re: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    When he states, clearly, that the documents do not "connect" valuable intelligence to torture, he is not trying to be clever, he is being clear. At most he is suggesting that nothing is proven, which is probably true, but that based on the evidence in those documents, you cannot say that torture worked.
    It's admirable that you believe he is not trying to be clever, but since he's a politician - I highly doubt it's a correct statement. Politicians on both sides choose their words very carefully. He easily could have been much more direct. he made a choice not to be. There is a reason he took that path.

    However, you and I are pretty close to agreement.

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    Re: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

    So let me ask the conservatives something.

    When people accused Bush and Cheney of Lying and to release classified documents that was wrong to conservatives because it could jeopardize national security.

    But now that a Dem president is in charge they think those same classified memos should be released even though it could jeopardize national security?

    At least keep consistent.

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    Re: Levin: Memos don't show what Cheney says they do

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Uhm, fo ADK, and the others like Will and such ready to announce the end of the Former Veep's credibility...

    If these memo's are so clear as to show him to be a liar, why not show them to the world?

    That's just... ya know, common sense.
    You can be so clueless and obtuse at times. If those docs could show BushCo's use of illegal torture was so productive they would have released them when they were in office. Since they didn't, and so much was at stake, there must be a very good reason why they still have not been declassified. And Dickie is using that to his advantage. But, sooner or later they will be declassified and we'll see for ourselves that Cheney was lying.
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