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Thread: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

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    Re: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    So you still do not see the difference in a "process" and a "plan?"

    Again, the false premise of the thread was that Petreaus endorsed Obama's "plan" to close Gitmo. Yet nothing in the article provided suggested anything of the sort and as WE both agree there is NO plan, he could not possibly have endorsed it.

    I think you are splitting hairs.

    Plans at the level are not one page documents that are submitted on web sites for casual purusal.

    What I can say is that there is definitely a plan in the works where most of the details are in place or GEN Petreaus would not have come out in support of the 'process' involving the closing of gitmo.

    In fact, just like his brief to Congress, he came out in support of the 'process' for Iraq. If you think there is one document that GEN Petreaus and his staff wrote that moved the situation in Iraq along .... well, you are wrong.

    Even a base order, is subject to review and revision as it is implimented. Plans change as the enemy votes by his response, as new opportunities open up or close, etc.

    Is the 'plan' finalized? Probably not. Is there plan moving along to meet the Presidents intent and not create a constitutional crisis? Is GEN Petreaus, the military commander of the region where most of the prisoners are returning to involved in that process and is that involvement likely benficial?

    Do you want a briefing from GEN Petreaus? I am sure you can head on down to CENTCOM HQ in Florida and ask. Good luck.

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    Re: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    Yes you do. Demobilization of troops costs money. Relocation of prisoners costs money. Relocation of equipment costs money. Removal and disposal of equipment or supplies costs money.

    Money that is line item approved for operational purchases is fairly specific in what it can be used for. There is some latitude in shifting a line item to another, but not in creating entire redeployment plans.
    True. Logistics cost money, coming or going.
    "Loyalty only matters when there's a hundred reasons not to be-" Gen. Mattis

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    Re: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

    The plan was and is....... to close GITMO & end torture. The details of how, the actual nitty gritty details which have you all so rabid, hasn't been developed. I am pretty certain, given the detail of the other issues "planned" and executed by Obama, there will be a plan and soon.

    Although there may not be a concrete plan, there is a plan of action that was outlined in the EO. Here you go, chew on this a while. Although I doubt you wanted any real debate, but rather just to divert attention from the fact that GITMO will be closed in spite of the vitriolic, PLANLESS, idea dessert of the lanscape trod by what passes for the right today. Man, you guys have as much gas as Limbaugh.

    Anyway, here's the bare bones of the plan outlined in the EO and signed a few months ago:

    Sec. 2. Findings.

    (a) Over the past 7 years, approximately 800 individuals whom the Department of Defense has ever determined to be, or treated as, enemy combatants have been detained at Guantánamo. The Federal Government has moved more than 500 such detainees from Guantánamo, either by returning them to their home country or by releasing or transferring them to a third country. The Department of Defense has determined that a number of the individuals currently detained at Guantánamo are eligible for such transfer or release.

    (b) Some individuals currently detained at Guantánamo have been there for more than 6 years, and most have been detained for at least 4 years. In view of the significant concerns raised by these detentions, both within the United States and internationally, prompt and appropriate disposition of the individuals currently detained at Guantánamo and closure of the facilities in which they are detained would further the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States and the interests of justice. Merely closing the facilities without promptly determining the appropriate disposition of the individuals detained would not adequately serve those interests. To the extent practicable, the prompt and appropriate disposition of the individuals detained at Guantánamo should precede the closure of the detention facilities at Guantánamo.

    (c) The individuals currently detained at Guantánamo have the constitutional privilege of the writ of habeas corpus. Most of those individuals have filed petitions for a writ of habeas corpus in Federal court challenging the lawfulness of their detention.

    (d) It is in the interests of the United States that the executive branch undertake a prompt and thorough review of the factual and legal bases for the continued detention of all individuals currently held at Guantánamo, and of whether their continued detention is in the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States and in the interests of justice. The unusual circumstances associated with detentions at Guantánamo require a comprehensive interagency review.

    (e) New diplomatic efforts may result in an appropriate disposition of a substantial number of individuals currently detained at Guantánamo.

    (f) Some individuals currently detained at Guantánamo may have committed offenses for which they should be prosecuted. It is in the interests of the United States to review whether and how any such individuals can and should be prosecuted.

    (g) It is in the interests of the United States that the executive branch conduct a prompt and thorough review of the circumstances of the individuals currently detained at Guantánamo who have been charged with offenses before military commissions pursuant to the Military Commissions Act of 2006, Public Law 109-366, as well as of the military commission process more generally.

    Sec. 3. Closure of Detention Facilities at Guantánamo. The detention facilities at Guantánamo for individuals covered by this order shall be closed as soon as practicable, and no later than 1 year from the date of this order. If any individuals covered by this order remain in detention at Guantánamo at the time of closure of those detention facilities, they shall be returned to their home country, released, transferred to a third country, or transferred to another United States detention facility in a manner consistent with law and the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States.

    Sec. 4. Immediate Review of All Guantánamo Detentions.

    (a) Scope and Timing of Review. A review of the status of each individual currently detained at Guantánamo (Review) shall commence immediately.
    (b) Review Participants. The Review shall be conducted with the full cooperation and participation of the following officials:

    (1) the Attorney General, who shall coordinate the Review;

    (2) the Secretary of Defense;

    (3) the Secretary of State;

    (4) the Secretary of Homeland Security;

    (5) the Director of National Intelligence;

    (6) the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; and

    (7) other officers or full-time or permanent part-time employees of the United States, including employees with intelligence, counterterrorism, military, and legal expertise, as determined by the Attorney General, with the concurrence of the head of the department or agency concerned.

    (c) Operation of Review. The duties of the Review participants shall include the following:

    (1) Consolidation of Detainee Information. The Attorney General shall, to the extent reasonably practicable, and in coordination with the other Review participants, assemble all information in the possession of the Federal Government that pertains to any individual currently detained at Guantánamo
    and that is relevant to determining the proper disposition of any such individual. All executive branch departments and agencies shall promptly comply with any request of the Attorney General to provide information in their possession or control pertaining to any such individual. The Attorney General may seek further information relevant to the Review from any source.

    (2) Determination of Transfer. The Review shall determine, on a rolling basis and as promptly as possible with respect to the individuals currently detained at Guantánamo, whether it is possible to transfer or release the individuals consistent with the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States and, if so, whether and how the Secretary of Defense may effect their transfer or release. The Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of State, and, as appropriate, other Review participants shall work to effect promptly the release or transfer of all individuals for whom release or transfer is possible.

    (3) Determination of Prosecution. In accordance with United States law, the cases of individuals detained at Guantánamo not approved for release or transfer shall be evaluated to determine whether the Federal Government should seek to prosecute the detained individuals for any offenses they may have committed, including whether it is feasible to prosecute such individuals before a court established pursuant to Article III of the United States Constitution, and the Review participants shall in turn take the necessary and appropriate steps based on such determinations.

    (4) Determination of Other Disposition. With respect to any individuals currently detained at Guantánamo whose disposition is not achieved under paragraphs (2) or (3) of this subsection, the Review shall select lawful means, consistent with the national security and foreign policy interests of the United States and the interests of justice, for the disposition of such individuals. The appropriate authorities shall promptly implement such dispositions.

    (5) Consideration of Issues Relating to Transfer to the United States. The Review shall identify and consider legal, logistical, and security issues relating to the potential transfer of individuals currently detained at Guantánamo to facilities within the United States, and the Review participants shall work with the Congress on any legislation that may be appropriate.

    Sec. 5. Diplomatic Efforts. The Secretary of State shall expeditiously pursue and direct such negotiations and diplomatic efforts with foreign governments as are necessary and appropriate to implement this order.

    Sec. 6. Humane Standards of Confinement. No individual currently detained at Guantánamo shall be held in the custody or under the effective control of any officer, employee, or other agent of the United States Government, or at a facility owned, operated, or controlled by a department or agency of the United States, except in conformity with all applicable laws governing the conditions of such confinement, including Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions. The Secretary of Defense shall immediately undertake a review of the conditions of detention at Guantánamo to ensure full compliance with this directive. Such review shall be completed within 30 days and any necessary corrections shall be implemented immediately thereafter.

    Sec. 7. Military Commissions. The Secretary of Defense shall immediately take steps sufficient to ensure that during the pendency of the Review described in section 4 of this order, no charges are sworn, or referred to a military commission under the Military Commissions Act of 2006 and the Rules for Military Commissions, and that all proceedings of such military commissions to which charges have been referred but in which no judgment has been rendered, and all proceedings pending in the United States Court of Military Commission Review, are halted.
    Sec. 8. General Provisions.

    (a) Nothing in this order shall prejudice the authority of the Secretary of Defense to determine the disposition of any detainees not covered by this order.

    (b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.

    (c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.


    BARACK OBAMA


    THE WHITE HOUSE,
    January 22, 2009.
    I helpfully highlighted and bolded the part I know you're going to want to "debate" in such lucid style and grace that we'll all be eager to discuss it with you.
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    Re: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    Sure.


    uhm



    NO PLAN.....






    That wasn't hard. And I did all the work.
    So does that mean the you agree with the General decision to endorse OBama and do you support the recommendation coming from this troop?

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    Banned gree0232's Avatar
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    Re: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    Obama hasn't made any declaration to close Gitmo. He has only said it should be closed and requested funds to assist the closing. Which were denied by the Senate.

    Yes you need funds to close something. It takes manpower and transportation costs to move the prisoners, equipment, and any other materials at the facility, and setup a permanent home for all these things else where.
    ah, yeah, he did. It was one of the first thing he did. Military and civilian planners will still draw up plans, including costs, even if Congress doesn't initially approve funds.

    I have seen more than a few supplemental battles .... having funding and making a plan that WILL require funds are two different things.

    I suppose Obama could have use the early vote as an opportunity to throw a snit fit, bit I for one appreciate having a Pres. who was mature enough to move beyond that and continue with his intentions convinced that in the end, the right thing would be done.

    Hmmm....little wonder GEN Petreaus and Obama get along so well.

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    Banned gree0232's Avatar
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    Re: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by WI Crippler View Post
    True. Logistics cost money, coming or going.
    Well, simply walking away from a building cost nothing. Leaving a facility in place for other use? That may cost money. The rest of the logistical costs are already being paid for and those costs are substantially trasferred, not increased, when the prisoners arrive at their destiniation.

    Moving prisoners costs money, but the sums are likely small enough that they can be shifted within the petagon's own budget unless Congress explicitly denied the pentagon permission to do this.

    When your budget is $600 billion, you have some slush to move around.

    And, you can still go back and ask again when the time comes to begin moving the prisoners. Too easy. This is hardly the hurdel this is neing made into.

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    Re: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I would say it's the plan that the Department of Justice is working on that Petraeus spoke of. That would be the plan.



    So its a plan in progress? So no plan yet?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by goldendog View Post
    So does that mean the you agree with the General decision to endorse OBama and do you support the recommendation coming from this troop?



    I disagree with this troop, and think it is premature to close Gitmo.


    though I won't call him a traitor like some kooks did who now are sucking up to him....
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    So you still do not see the difference in a "process" and a "plan?"

    Again, the false premise of the thread was that Petreaus endorsed Obama's "plan" to close Gitmo. Yet nothing in the article provided suggested anything of the sort and as WE both agree there is NO plan, he could not possibly have endorsed it.

    You're being very dishonest yet again. General Petraeus is clearly endorsing Obama's decision to move forward with planning for the close of GITMO. He's obviously been brought into the loop on what's been accomplished thus far and he approves. You can attempt to spin this all you want, but it's not fooling anyone. You aren't making an actual argument, you're playing semantics (it's not yet a plan, it's it's a process not a plan) in order to avoid the real story here. And that is that General Petraeus is in agreement with President Obama about closing the camp. And that is a very good thing. That is an endorsement of the Presidents direction on the matter.

    For the record, what Moveon.org did to General Petraeus was shameful. It was more than shameful, it was disgusting. But they don't represent all Democrats. They do absurd things in the name of the Democratic party and liberals but they in no way have every Democrats support. They like to pretend they do however.

    I'm pleasantly surprised by his comments to say the least. Now, I want to see the administration actually close GITMO.
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Petraeus Endorses Obama's Plans To Close GITMO, End Torture

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    So its a plan in progress? So no plan yet?
    Yeah, that's it.
    *insert profound statement here*

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