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Thread: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

  1. #101
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    Re: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I am always amused at the farcical rhetoric about allied bombing of Dresden or dropping atomic bombs on nations that started a WORLD WAR and subjected the defeated to unspeakable atrocities. Do you really think this is a remotely credible argument?
    With Dresden, I go off of the words of someone, an American soldier, who was actually there and was forced to "walk" through Dresden and worse..

    Kurt Vonnegut has made me believe that it was an act of atrocity.


    "The firebombing of Dresden was an emotional event without a trace of military importance.

    I will say again what I have often said in print and in speeches, that not one Allied soldier was able to advance as much as an inch because of the firebombing of Dresden. Not one prisoner of the Nazis got out of prison a microsecond earlier. Only one person on earth clearly benefited, and I am that person," said Vonnegut, referring to his bestselling novel. "I got about five dollars for each corpse, not counting my fee tonight."
    His popular novels blended social criticism, dark humor (page 4) - Los Angeles Times
    Last edited by Tucker Case; 05-29-09 at 02:38 PM.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    With Dresden, I go off of the words of someone, an American soldier, who was actually there and was forced to "walk" through Dresden and worse..

    Kurt Vonnegut has made me believe that it was an act of atrocity.

    His popular novels blended social criticism, dark humor (page 4) - Los Angeles Times
    Wrong; an atrocity is the burning of innocent Jews in ovens for the mere fact that they were Jews. Germany and Japans treatment of the defeated people's in the countries they conquered and their treatment of our troops were atrocities.

    The strategic bombing of cities like Dresden is the unfortunate consequence of War which was begun and carried out by the Nazi's and Japanese.

    Vonnegut should have walked the prisons of Dachau and Belsen before he walked the streets of Dresden; he may have had an entirely different perspective.

    As a caveat, my mother is German; I was born in Germany and have family there.

    A 1953 United States Air Force report written by Joseph W. Angell defended the operation as the justified bombing of a military and industrial target, which was a major rail transportation and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the German war effort.[4]

    On 25 January, the Joint Intelligence Committee expressed support for the idea, as it tied in with the ULTRA-based intelligence that dozens of German divisions which had been deployed in the west were being moved to reinforce the Eastern Front and that the interdiction of these troop movements should be given a high priority.[17] Arthur Harris, AOC Bomber Command (nicknamed "Bomber" Harris in the British press, and known as an ardent supporter of area bombing[18]) was asked for his opinion, and proposed a simultaneous attack on Chemnitz, Leipzig and Dresden.[19] That evening Churchill asked the Secretary of State for Air, Sir Archibald Sinclair, what plans had been drawn up to carry out these proposals. He passed on the request to Sir Charles Portal, the Chief of the Air Staff, who answered that "We should use available effort in one big attack on Berlin and attacks on Dresden, Leipzig, and Chemnitz, or any other cities where a severe blitz will not only cause confusion in the evacuation from the East, but will also hamper the movement of troops from the West".[19] However, he mentioned that aircraft diverted to such raids should not be taken away from the current primary tasks of destroying oil production facilities, jet aircraft factories, and submarine yards.[19][20]

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II[/ame]
    Last edited by Truth Detector; 05-29-09 at 02:53 PM.

  3. #103
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    Re: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Vonnegut should have walked the prisons of Dachau and Belsen before he walked the streets of Dresden; he may have had an entirely different perspective.
    As a POW in Dresden, I'm really sure they gave Kurt much of a choice.

    He wasn't "walking" the streets so much as he was "disposing of the corpses".
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    Re: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    As a POW in Dresden, I'm really sure they gave Kurt much of a choice.

    He wasn't "walking" the streets so much as he was "disposing of the corpses".
    I was not aware that Kurt was THAT old or what the circumstances of his Dresden experience were; my argument does not change however.

  5. #105
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    Re: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    I'm withholding judgement on all of the above. I'm no chicken little.

    Though, I'm quite happy that boyfriend is TDY in Hawaii right now, instead of Korea.

    But, I will admit to some amusement over the far left on MANY issues.


    I bet he is too.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  6. #106
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    Re: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    In the link to the two photos I found this comment which, though hard to accept, is accurate:



    I am sure the victims of this alleged activity appreciate your lack of empathy for thier privacy.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  7. #107
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    Re: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    I was not aware that Kurt was THAT old or what the circumstances of his Dresden experience were; my argument does not change however.
    He was a POW and was actually present during the firebombing itself and teh aftermath. Slaughterhouse Five is based on his experiences (the book is named after the place the POW's were imprisoned).

    My views of Dresden are based greatly upon his first-hand accounts of things.

    That a historian came in after the fact and decided to call it "justified" means nothing to me.

    I'll take the word from the "boots on the ground" over some egghead trying to justify it after the fact.

    That's just me though.

    And the atrocities committed by the Germans are not an excuse for atrocities committed by the allies, in my opinion. Each action must be viewed independently.

    An argument can be made that Nagasaki and Hiroshima saved lives. With Dresden, that just isn't the case.
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    Re: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    He was a POW and was actually present during the firebombing itself and teh aftermath. Slaughterhouse Five is based on his experiences (the book is named after the place the POW's were imprisoned).

    My views of Dresden are based greatly upon his first-hand accounts of things.

    That a historian came in after the fact and decided to call it "justified" means nothing to me.

    I'll take the word from the "boots on the ground" over some egghead trying to justify it after the fact.

    That's just me though.

    And the atrocities committed by the Germans are not an excuse for atrocities committed by the allies, in my opinion. Each action must be viewed independently.

    An argument can be made that Nagasaki and Hiroshima saved lives. With Dresden, that just isn't the case.
    So you think that Kurt was a witness while being an imprisoned POW?

    Fascinating account if you ask me. Yet it does not include the discussions and strategic decisions that were going on at the time nor do they address the facts that if you donít want to see your cities destroyed, donít start a WORLD WAR right?

    Once again, the argument that these bombings served no value in the vacuum of the historic record hardly make a coherent argument that this was somehow a "war crime" or your words, and "atrocity."

    But I like you Tucker, so I will leave you with your OPINION and I mine. But I categorically reject the farcical statement that bombing Dresden was an atrocity. It does not meet the definition and is a trite attempt to rationalize that which had no rationale, the starting of a World War Conflict and the subsequent results of what happens when you do.

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    Re: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverend_Hellh0und View Post
    I bet he is too.
    For sure. Though he was there in March. And I think Kim Jong Il was just as belligerent about imperialist american war games as he always is.

  10. #110
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    Re: Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    So you think that Kurt was a witness while being an imprisoned POW?
    He witnessed the carnage first-hand. He could be considered an expert as to what regions were hit and who was affected. From his accounts, there were many civilians and few Military personnel in the corpse pile. For me, that is the most important factor. It might not be the most important factor for everyone, though.

    Fascinating account if you ask me. Yet it does not include the discussions and strategic decisions that were going on at the time nor do they address the facts that if you donít want to see your cities destroyed, donít start a WORLD WAR right?
    I don't disagree with this. But the civilians who died, and the vast majority of the Dresden casualties were civilians, had no choice in the matter. They were innocent bystanders.

    The strategic importance is secondary to this, in my opinion.

    Once again, the argument that these bombings served no value in the vacuum of the historic record hardly make a coherent argument that this was somehow a "war crime" or your words, and "atrocity."
    I wouldn't call it a war crime, per se, but anytime civilians are targeted, it is an atrocity to me.

    I think there is little doubt that Dresden was a targeting of civilians. The evidence of what was hit and how pretty much makes that case.

    But I like you Tucker, so I will leave you with your OPINION and I mine.
    I like you too, bro!

    And I wholeheartedly admit that it is my opinion, and that what I'm saying is not "fact". I think that any discussion of subjective terms such as "atrocity" is purely base don opinions and not set-in-stone fact.

    I have my opinion, you have yours. Both opinions are based on facts, they just undergo different interpretations based on our own views of things.

    I wouldn't say your opinion is wrong, I would just say it's different than mine.

    But I categorically reject the farcical statement that bombing Dresden was an atrocity. It does not meet the definition and is a trite attempt to rationalize that which had no rationale, the starting of a World War Conflict and the subsequent results of what happens when you do.
    I don't think that the actual bombing of Dresden was the atrocity so much as the people that it killed.

    To me, they were simply the pawns of the evil men that ran Germany at the time. I don't feel that they were to blame, but they paid the ultimate price for the evil actions committed by their leaders.

    I don't really lay blame for the atrocity squarely on the allied powers either, since the ultimate responsibility for WWII rests on the people who initiated it.

    Atrocity is a sad fact of war, IMO. Usually both sides have some degree of blame. But typically, the most blame falls on the initiators of the conflict, IMO.
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