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Once Considered Unthinkable, U.S. Sales Tax Gets Fresh Look

Redress said:
Have not seen any point to the complaining, so I think that is fair to say.

You complain about the deficit. You complain when solutions are considered for the deficit.
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I offered solutions, a few posts back...

Cut spending, and cut spending.

See solves the budget issue and no need to further enslave us with taxes!
 
MrVicchio said:
I offered solutions, a few posts back...

Cut spending, and cut spending.

See solves the budget issue and no need to further enslave us with taxes!
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That is not politically realistic. The American people consistently elect presidents and congressmen who INCREASE spending. While the tax rate goes up and down depending on the political winds, the US federal budget has not shrunk a single time since 1965.

That doesn't mean that you have to stop tilting against windmills; by all means, continue to oppose federal spending if that's what you believe. But in the meantime, let's at least acknowledge the political reality that the American people PREFER a larger government than you do, and it isn't likely to shrink anytime soon.
 
Kandahar said:
That is not politically realistic. The American people consistently elect presidents and congressmen who INCREASE spending. While the tax rate goes up and down depending on the political winds, the US federal budget has not shrunk a single time since 1965.

That doesn't mean that you have to stop tilting against windmills; by all means, continue to oppose federal spending if that's what you believe. But in the meantime, let's at least acknowledge the political reality that the American people PREFER a larger government than you do, and it isn't likely to shrink anytime soon.
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we also consistently elect people that promise to not raise our taxes. It is not politically realistic to raise taxes - except on the minority that can't defend themselves at the polls of course.

Modern Day liberalism in a nutshell right there. Use democracy to take advantage of groups without the strength to protect themselves from democracy.
 
MrVicchio said:
I offered solutions, a few posts back...

Cut spending, and cut spending.

See solves the budget issue and no need to further enslave us with taxes!
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You did, and I don't disagree with those solutions. In fact, you should find me saying things in favor of cutting spending if you look at my posting history. That does not mean that is the only route to a balanced budget, and complaining that the white house is looking at ways to fix something you complain about is silly.
 
ARealConservative said:
we also consistently elect people that promise to not raise our taxes.
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Nevertheless, those people DO raise taxes every now and then...and in many cases, are not punished by the voters for it. On the other hand, not one president or Congress has DARED to cut spending in a single budget since 1965. It has gotten larger every single year since then.

That should tell you something about the relative importance of those two issues for most voters.

ARealConservative said:
Modern Day liberalism in a nutshell right there. Use democracy to take advantage of groups without the strength to protect themselves from democracy.
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Whining about the government's policies is not the same as changing them. The fact is that the government routinely spends more than it has, and the American people obviously prefer higher spending to lower taxes given the political history of the last few decades.
 
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Kandahar said:
Senators do not work for the president. They have agendas of their own which may or may not coincide with the president's.
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Really? Who do they work for; certainly not the good citizens of the US? :roll:

You really think that Conrad went out on this limb all alone without knowing whether or not the admin would cut it off behind him? I doubt it.



Even if that were true, is floating a trial balloon the same as endorsing the idea?
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My comment was in response to someone saying something along the line of, 'What does the administration have to do with this'. I highly doubt it caught them by surprise and it seems some of the adminstration have been thinking along the same lines.

They are going to have to raise a lot of moeny and a VAT would do that and it has the advantage of being hidden from the dumbmasses who would just blame the price increases on those big business assholes.


.
 
Kandahar said:
That is not politically realistic. The American people consistently elect presidents and congressmen who INCREASE spending.
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This means its the right course of action?


Anyone? Anyone?

Kandahar said:
While the tax rate goes up and down depending on the political winds, the US federal budget has not shrunk a single time since 1965.
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Ahh yes, the start of the fall of America as echoed by Ben Franklin and De Toqueville... something about the experiment in democracy will fail when the people realize they can vote themselves... gold from the treasury.

Oh look, they were RIGHT!

Kandahar said:
That doesn't mean that you have to stop tilting against windmills; by all means, continue to oppose federal spending if that's what you believe.
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I will rail again irresponsible government spending

Kandahar said:
But in the meantime, let's at least acknowledge the political reality that the American people PREFER a larger government than you do, and it isn't likely to shrink anytime soon.
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That a majority of Americans are ****ing morons that think me me me me and keep ensuring this great country falls further from the course of prosperity and success... yeah I realized that years ago.
 
MrVicchio said:
This means its the right course of action?
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It means it's the political reality, so we should pay for our government.

MrVicchio said:
Ahh yes, the start of the fall of America as echoed by Ben Franklin and De Toqueville... something about the experiment in democracy will fail when the people realize they can vote themselves... gold from the treasury.

Oh look, they were RIGHT!
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See above. Whining about the government's policies is not the same as changing them.

MrVicchio said:
That a majority of Americans are ****ing morons that think me me me me and keep ensuring this great country falls further from the course of prosperity and success... yeah I realized that years ago.
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Good. So let's pay for the government that we ****ing morons elected, instead of pretending it doesn't exist. ;)
 
Kandahar said:
Nevertheless, those people DO raise taxes every now and then...and in many cases, are not punished by the voters for it. On the other hand, not one president or Congress has DARED to cut spending in a single budget since 1965. It has gotten larger every single year since then.

That should tell you something about the relative importance of those two issues for most voters.
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I agree with that. Every single president or congress since 1965 can be defined as a populist doing and saying what needs to be said to win elections.
 
Kandahar said:
Nevertheless, those people DO raise taxes every now and then...and in many cases, are not punished by the voters for it.
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I agree. We the voters really are not doing our jobs as citizens like we should be (Im just as guilty). If we decided to put forth half the effort we spend on our own entertainment to voice our opinion to our government officials I think we would have a different country today.

Kandahar said:
On the other hand, not one president or Congress has DARED to cut spending in a single budget since 1965. It has gotten larger every single year since then.
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I have often said the progressiveness we have had since the 1960 is what will ultimatly break our country.
 
Baralis said:
I agree. We the voters really are not doing our jobs as citizens like we should be (Im just as guilty). If we decided to put forth half the effort we spend on our own entertainment to voice our opinion to our government officials I think we would have a different country today.



I have often said the progressiveness we have had since the 1960 is what will ultimatly break our country.
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it sure looks that way, but it really goes back to 1913
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
People are complaining because they are thinking of doing everything except cut spending.

The one thing they should do but won't.
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And yet, President Obama has already found some cuts in spending. Not enough, but more than, for example, President Bush the younger.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I have a great personal disdain for GW 1 and 2.

His cuts are fluff in my opinion.
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They are. Cannot, even if I wanted to, argue with that. I hope that more are coming, but I am not going to hold my breath.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Ah yes, raise gas taxes so the poor would be hurt when filling up. Maybe you can force them to buy over priced priuses.
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What makes you think the poor can afford to buy gas now when food is already sky rocketing in prices? The argument of 'think of the poor' always seems to come from people who weren't poor for long. You do know that the poor will choose to eat before driving? Just like they'll choose to buy their kids school supplies before driving and doing a million other things before driving.
 
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Hatuey said:
What makes you think the poor can afford to buy gas now when food is already sky rocketing in prices? The argument of 'think of the poor' always seems to come from people who weren't poor for long. You do know that the poor will choose to eat before driving? Just like they'll choose to buy their kids school supplies before driving and doing a million other things before driving.
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I can barely afford the gas to go buy groceries...
 
danarhea said:
If it means the dismantling of the IRS, then I am all for a national sales tax.
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You'd still need an enforcement agency. Example, Chinatowns across America are notorious for tax evasion due to their cash sales that are not counted in the register. A sales tax system would still require partnership like tax returns to show the sales and thus the sales tax that should have been paid which can then be referenced to the amount actually paid. While that is still open to fraud, no enforcement agency is a honors system of paying sales taxes and last I checked, my fellow Americans are not the most honest people when it comes to paying their taxes. An honors system is asking Dracula to guard the blood bank. Furthermore, an enforcement agency could do simple audit procedures to red flag firms that are not paying their share by comparing them to known honest vendors in the same industry and area.
 
Kandahar said:
I wouldn't mind cutting payroll taxes by an equivalent amount, to offset the difficulty the poor would have affording gasoline. That's my biggest problem with the tax code, rather than the overall rate of taxation. It's not so much that people are taxed too much or too little (although I think we need to be taxed SLIGHTLY more overall)...it's that we tax the wrong things.

Let's have less payroll taxes and more income taxes.
Let's have less corporate taxes and more capital gains taxes.
Let's have less general sales taxes (and no VAT tax) and more energy-specific sales taxes.
Let's abolish the alternative minimum tax and simplify the entire tax code instead.
Let's have fewer loopholes for employer-provided health care and more deductions for education expenses.


Etc, etc.
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Or lets do a 15% flat tax for the feds, and a 3% for the states.


Awesome! :thumbs:
 
Hatuey said:
What makes you think the poor can afford to buy gas now when food is already sky rocketing in prices? The argument of 'think of the poor' always seems to come from people who weren't poor for long. You do know that the poor will choose to eat before driving? Just like they'll choose to buy their kids school supplies before driving and doing a million other things before driving.
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I grew up in the Ironbound section of Newark, and the Lower East side of Manhattan in the 70's/80's, Joined the AF in the 90's, didn' get rich until this century. stop talking out of ignorance. :lol:



If as you claimed based on thin air, that they can't afford gas now, tell me, how will raising taxes on gas not hurt them?
 
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Redress said:
I can barely afford the gas to go buy groceries...
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Q:

Where do you live?

Is there a bus?

How many tv's do you have?

Do you have cable?

Smoke?

Drink?

what kind of car do you drive?

Do you work?

How many jobs?




Do you see where I am going with this? It's not that you are too poor for gas, I bet, if you chose to answer these things, I could afford you some go juice right quick. ;)
 
MrVicchio said:
Call me crazy her, but wouldn't ya know... cutting spending be a better choice here?

Anyone? Anyone?
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He does that too: you're getting out of Iraq
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Q:

Where do you live?

Is there a bus?

How many tv's do you have?

Do you have cable?

Smoke?

Drink?

what kind of car do you drive?

Do you work?

How many jobs?




Do you see where I am going with this? It's not that you are too poor for gas, I bet, if you chose to answer these things, I could afford you some go juice right quick. ;)
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The guy that fixes my AC is having rough with gas. Dallas covers a lot of square miles and he has to drive his truck all over.
 
Reverend_Hellh0und said:
He is doing it wrong. HVAC contracting is a lucrative industry.
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It is more than gas people are putting off what should be done till later and the gas bill certainly doesn't help. I use to be a Kodak rep (I drove around training sales people about photography) for N Texas and when gas hit approx 3 bucks I quit be cause it just wasn't worth it anymore.
 
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