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Thread: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    It's not equal.



    One other important thing. A domestic partnership is not transferrable to many other nations, or even other States, in the way that a marriage would be. Marriage licensing is "stronger" for this reason, or even civil unions which, as of now, are outlawed for gays.

    Also, the term "marriage" is significant to a lot of people, such as gays who are religious. They should have the ability to get married in the church of their faith if that church is willing to perform the ceremony. As it stands, they cannot do that because the law makes the decision for all churches. IMO this also steps upon the religious freedoms of churches and their communities who are in favor of same-sex marriage, and there are many.
    I've already addressed that exact same ****ing list.
    Edit: post 308

    I gave credible links to evidence clearing up some of those misconceptions and misunderstandings, AND my requests for additional information which was summeraly ignored.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-27-09 at 01:43 PM.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Y'know Jer, sometimes methinks that it is the GOP who wants to put the gay stuff on the ballots, alongside the candidates up for election. That brings more voters out to their side on election day. A subtle form of voter manipulation. The Libs do it too, only they use pot as their magnet issue.

    It really shouldn't be up for a vote. It's only right to do what's right and let them have equality in all things. It should be a mandate. But it ain't the governments job to tell them no in the first place. It ain't the church's either. Getting married to somebody of the same sex OR the opposite sex should be THEIR choice. But the church has every right to NOT sanction it if they so desire. Big deal.

    "Sure, you can get married IF..... " Who has the right to put an "if" in there? To me, that is beyond arrogant. I just don't understand why some people get their panty's in a bunch when gays ask for equality. Who's it gonna hurt? You? Me? I highly doubt it. Much adoo over nothing.
    Well see that's why I don't vote on the issue.

    I like to debate it, though...lots o fun there

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    I should go pro-gm for a while and see how that is.
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-27-09 at 01:56 PM.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by SpotsCat View Post
    I'm not going to even begin to try to how illustrate how poverty stricken this state actually is, it's astounding the conditions that some people still live in in this day and age. However, there are two little things you overlooked when you posted your data and drew your conclusion --

    First, California has a population of 36,756,666 according to the latest census figures. Mississippi has a population of 2,998,618 - which makes this state about the size of the Sacramento and Modesto Metropolitan Statistical Areas combined. Or, put another way, California has 12.25 times the population of Mississippi. Needless to say, California has a significantly larger tax base, more industry, and generates more revenue. California is like the New York Yankees of the fifty states - a huge revenue stream.

    Secondly, instead of using info from some unknown group with an agenda, let's look at what Uncle Sam himself says, shall we? According to the Federal Aid to States for Fiscal Year 2005 published by the Census Department - Mississippi is 11th on the list, behind other more noteworthy states such as Wyoming, Alaska, New York, North Dakota, Montana, New Mexico, Maine, Vermont, West Virginia, and Rhode Island in the amount of federal aid received per capita.

    If you look at the FAS data for 2006 here, you'll see that Mississippi moved up into the #3 position. In 2007 here, Mississippi dropped down a slot to #4.

    But, before you jump to conclusions about how that proves Mississippi is a welfare state and lives off of tax revenues from other states, keep in mind one little thing that occurred to cause this sudden jump in per capita Federal spending -- here's a hint... seven letters, starts with a "K", and tore the bejeezus out of the Gulf coast in September of 2006.

    As before, this is a poor state, no doubt about it. They're trying to attract industry to the "New South", and prior to the economic downturn of recent had managed to build a huge Nissan/Infiniti auto plant, as well as a Toyota engine manufacturing plant.

    It takes time to undo years of neglect and bring Mississippi into the 21st century, but slowly but surely we're getting there.
    Here. I'll slim that ridiculous wall of text to a few sentences because you see to be unable to :

    1. You were one of the poorest state out of a 50 state union in 2005.

    2. Katrina hit.

    3. Your poverty got worse and you became an even bigger recipient of federal aid by 2009.

    4. How does this help your argument about 'personal responsibility' again? Considering you brought it up I'd love to know how you think it is the role of rich states to help out poor states like Mississippi. Isn't 'personal responsibility' about helping yourselves? Why haven't you? I find it odd that you'd bring such a word up coming from a place that is leeching off the rest of us. Listen. How about you do us both a favor. Admit you were way off and came up with a red herring you now have trouble swallowing like it came with a condom.

    You never took any Political Science classes in college, did you? Regardless of the issue, the principal is still the same - bring a defeated issue to the ballot too many times, and you can encounter voter backlash. If you can't grasp that concept - irrrespective of the state, issue, or ideology - then I really can't explain it to you.


    Do you want to stop this now? As I've explained to you. California and Mississippi are not even close to the same. The example you cited is not the same. There are so many factors to take into consideration that what you brought up is a simply distraction. Please stop?

    We will see, we will see.

    BTW - FWIW, I support same-sex marriage. I see no reason why a homosexual couple shouldn't be allowed to marry and be as miserable as we hetrosexual couples are...

    Woof, woof.
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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Here. I'll slim that ridiculous wall of text to a few sentences because you see to be unable to :

    1. You were one of the poorest state out of a 50 state union in 2005.

    2. Katrina hit.

    3. Your poverty got worse and you became an even bigger recipient of federal aid by 2009.

    4. How does this help your argument about 'personal responsibility' again? Considering you brought it up I'd love to know how you think it is the role of rich states to help out poor states like Mississippi. Isn't 'personal responsibility' about helping yourselves? Why haven't you? I find it odd that you'd bring such a word up coming from a place that is leeching off the rest of us. Listen. How about you do us both a favor. Admit you were way off and came up with a red herring you now have trouble swallowing like it came with a condom.



    Do you want to stop this now? As I've explained to you. California and Mississippi are not even close to the same. The example you cited is not the same. There are so many factors to take into consideration that what you brought up is a simply distraction. Please stop?

    Good for you?
    And here I thought I he posted on the wrong thread

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Here. I'll slim that ridiculous wall of text to a few sentences because you see to be unable to :

    1. You were one of the poorest state out of a 50 state union in 2005.

    2. Katrina hit.

    3. Your poverty got worse and you became an even bigger recipient of federal aid by 2009.

    4. How does this help your argument about 'personal responsibility' again? Considering you brought it up I'd love to know how you think it is the role of rich states to help out poor states like Mississippi. Isn't 'personal responsibility' about helping yourselves? Why haven't you? I find it odd that you'd bring such a word up coming from a place that is leeching off the rest of us. Listen. How about you do us both a favor. Admit you were way off and came up with a red herring you now have trouble swallowing like it came with a condom.
    You're so far off base, it's amazing!

    Here's the deal -- go back through this thread and read my posts, all four of them. They're numbers 298, 307, 323, and 422.

    Show me in any of those four posts where I used the term "personal responsibility", and I'll leave this forum immediately and never return. When you don't, how about you "...admit you were way off and came up with a red herring you now have trouble swallowing like it came with a condom"?

    Do you want to stop this now? As I've explained to you. California and Mississippi are not even close to the same. The example you cited is not the same. There are so many factors to take into consideration that what you brought up is a simply distraction. Please stop?
    I've never claimed that California and Mississippi are the same, and I'm extremely happy that they aren't. The example I used of a liquor referendum in Mississippi was to convey how voter backlash can have an unintended consequence on an election - no comparison to the same-sex issue in California was intended, other than to demonstrate an example of voter backlash, and how that might effect a possible 2010 referendum. Sorry that simple concept seems to have escaped you.

    So how about you do us both a favor? Study a little political science, so you understand the basic theories, vocabulary, and concepts and then you can have an intelligent conversation without resorting to strawman arguments.

    BTW - When you post a chart, it would be deeply appreciated if you'd make reference - either by hyperlink, or text - as to when you got the information from. Any chucklehead with an agenda can draw a couple of lines on a piece of paper and claim it proves something. Not to say that you'd do that, but as Ronald Reagan once said - "Trust, but verify." Thank you.
    Last edited by SpotsCat; 05-27-09 at 04:58 PM.
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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by SpotsCat View Post
    You're so far off base, it's amazing!

    Here's the deal -- go back through this thread and read my posts, all four of them. They're numbers 298, 307, 323, and 422.

    Show me in any of those four posts where I used the term "personal responsibility", and I'll leave this forum immediately and never return. When you don't, how about you "...admit you were way off and came up with a red herring you now have trouble swallowing like it came with a condom"?
    I'm talking about personal responsibility in terms of the state looking out for itself. In Mississippi Fiscal Government Responsibility clearly means being the poorest while demanding money from others.

    I've never claimed that California and Mississippi are the same, and I'm extremely happy that they aren't. The example I used of a liquor referendum in Mississippi was to convey how voter backlash can have an unintended consequence on an election - no comparison to the same-sex issue in California was intended. Sorry that simple concept seems to have escaped you.
    And I've explained to you why this doesn't apply in the case of Gay marriage in California and support for gay marriage has increased as the years have gone by instead of decreased.

    So how about you do us both a favor? Study a little political science, so you understand the basic theories, vocabulary, and concepts and then you can have an intelligent conversation without resorting to strawman arguments.
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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I'm talking about personal responsibility in terms of the state looking out for itself. In Mississippi Fiscal Government Responsibility clearly means being the poorest while demanding money from others.
    Sorry pal, but that ain't gonna cut it.

    Regardless of how you may define it, there's a huge difference between "personal responsibility" and "governmental fiscal responsibility" - which is the term I used in post #323.

    As I said before, show me where I used the term "personal responsibility".

    I'm waiting...
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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I'm talking about personal responsibility in terms of the state looking out for itself. In Mississippi Fiscal Government Responsibility clearly means being the poorest while demanding money from others.
    Let's look at a couple of numbers from the Federal Aid to States for Fiscal Year 2005, and from the Federal Aid to States for Fiscal Year 2007 (hyperlinks posted previously).

    In 2005, Mississippi received $5,168,358,000 in Federal money. California received $46,029,364,000 in Federal money.

    In 2007, Mississippi received $8,239,349,000 in Federal money. California received $49,976,123,000 in Federal money.

    Mississippi had a natural disaster that accounts for a huge portion of the $3.1 billion dollar increase. California's $3.9 billion dollar increase was because of... what?

    Climb off of the high horse, boyo. California is sucking the giant Federal tit just like the rest of the states. Mississippi may get more money per capita, but y'all are slurpin' away at the Federal trough - in fact, California rakes in more Federal money than any other state! New York is second, but they're $6.7 billion behind the well-fed piggies in the Golden State (FASFY'07).

    Bottom line --

    With our $8.2 billion in Federal aid, we are only looking at a $480 million deficit for 2010. With $49.9 billion in Federal aid, California is looking at a $33.9 billion dollar deficit.

    What was it you were saying about "governmental fiscal responsibility", something about how I should "...write to your Governors and tell them to stop, as Republicans like to say when it suits them, 'stealing' money"?

    While I think I'll have a
    Last edited by SpotsCat; 05-27-09 at 05:48 PM.
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  10. #450
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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    The judiciary is an equal branch of government. I'm getting sick and tired of watching individual rights being trampled upon by both state and federal government. The judiciary has the right to intervene to protect such rights and I welcome it whenever it happens.
    Only as far as the separation of powers, rule of law and constitution permit.

    Where we differ is what we believe rights to be. If you don't see it as a right, naturally you'd view intervention by the judiciary as judicial activism; ie, legislating from the bench. Whereas, if I see it as a right, then it isn't judicial activism when the courts intervene to protect it.
    No we differ on how much we put our ends above using the means of arbitrary power, it is judicial activism certainly.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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