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Thread: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Can anyone explain to me how the CASC decision was unsound?
    That is, can you tell me how the decision was wrong?
    Because they are right wing activist judges

    Just kidding, they ruled on the Constitution twice one time in favor of gay marriage and one time against after the Constitution was amended.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    You didn't do your homework. I'm going to have to mark you down for that.

    Seriously, get better informed or get off the thread. By just repeating something that is factually incorrect, you're not adding anything the discussion.


    'The Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor!!" Get it? You sound ridiculous.
    I've already linked-to and quoted CA statutes, case law, credible 3rd party legal advice sites explaining various aspects of Domestic Partnership...etc...what have you don except come on at the end and troll?
    Last edited by Jerry; 05-27-09 at 12:59 PM.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Yeah you're talking about social issues on a legal thread, don't you see the error there?
    Because the legal issue is a social issue?

    You can hide behind the guise of concrete legality all you want by saying that gays already have equal rights via heterosexual marriage, but that is not equal rights to homosexuals which is why the fight is happening in the first place. Repeating that idea over and over is simple denial of reality, even though it has a nice catch.

    The fact that the Constitution didn't mention marriage at all until Prop 8 means that it is actually heterosexuals who created the new right for themselves. Of course, you'll then argue that the precedent is tradition... but since we're talking in a "legal thread", that's not valid.

    The very legality of this is subjective and open to interpretation since it is a new issue, and it is bound to take aspects of the social and legal realms into consideration. I don't see how you can sterilize the issue by making such an arbitrary separation.

    Fact is, heterosexuals want a unique right created for themselves, and they've accomplished that through popular activism. Now gays have the right to continuing lobbying for the ballot at every single opportunity until equality is demonstrated. It's that simple.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Under Prop8 gays have all the civil rights, so there's nothing left to fight for, they won.
    I dunno, I still think there are a few hurdles to cross. I personally would love to see us start focusing more on helping those who are opposed to gay marriage to see things our way, and I think the way to do that is through kindness, respect, and exposure. We must understand that some may never change, but there are plenty of folks who will if we are willing to talk openly and diplomatically about the issue. If we can manage to do that, then I think we should begin pushing for acceptance on a national level.

    I've read your arguments on this subject, Jerry, and you make good points. If I may be so bold, you seem like the kind of person who could put aside any presuppositions and be willing to give homosexual couples a fair shot if gay marriage became legal in your state. But if we disrespect your beliefs and start blasting away at those who currently disagree with us on the issue... Well, I guess it would be difficult to convince anyone under those circumstances.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Because they are right wing activist judges


    Just kidding, they ruled on the Constitution twice one time in favor of gay marriage and one time against after the Constitution was amended.
    This ruling didnt have anything to do wirth the constitutionality of the ban on gay marriage, but the procedure under which the amendment to that effect was created/passed.

    How were they wrong?

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post



    This ruling didnt have anything to do wirth the constitutionality of the ban on gay marriage, but the procedure under which the amendment to that effect was created/passed.

    How were they wrong?
    I don't think they were wrong. The CA Constitution says no gay marriage now. Even though I fully support gay marriage rights that is what the Constitution says now.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    As I keep saying, the fight is sociological, not legal.

    This is not the right place to fight for social acceptance since that is not something a court can grant
    .
    The government CAN grant them equality under the law. Social acceptance is completely different. It is the gay marriage OPPONENTS who are attempting to equate the two.
    Oh, only the opponents, aye, yeah check this post out...

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Because the legal issue is a social issue?

    You can hide behind the guise of concrete legality all you want by saying that gays already have equal rights via heterosexual marriage, but that is not equal rights to homosexuals which is why the fight is happening in the first place. Repeating that idea over and over is simple denial of reality, even though it has a nice catch.

    The fact that the Constitution didn't mention marriage at all until Prop 8 means that it is actually heterosexuals who created the new right for themselves. Of course, you'll then argue that the precedent is tradition... but since we're talking in a "legal thread", that's not valid.

    The very legality of this is subjective and open to interpretation since it is a new issue, and it is bound to take aspects of the social and legal realms into consideration. I don't see how you can sterilize the issue by making such an arbitrary separation.

    Fact is, heterosexuals want a unique right created for themselves, and they've accomplished that through popular activism. Now gays have the right to continuing lobbying for the ballot at every single opportunity until equality is demonstrated. It's that simple.
    Orius, I didn't say the situation was equal because gays can participate in opposite-sex marriage.

    I said the situation was equal because gays have Domestic Partnership.

    All those rights you were just ranting about: gays have them, right now, even under Prop8. They have their rights, they won, it's over.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Orius, I didn't say the situation was equal because gays can participate in opposite-sex marriage.

    I said the situation was equal because gays have Domestic Partnership.
    Which, of course, the gay marriage debate is not even about. But you knew that already.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I said the situation was equal because gays have Domestic Partnership.
    It's not equal.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_California#Differences_fro m_Marriage
    * Couples seeking domestic partnership must already share a residence, married couples may be married without living together.
    * Couples seeking domestic partnership must be 18 or older, minors can be married before the age of 18 with the consent of their parents.
    * California permits married couples the option of confidential marriage, there is no equivalent institution for domestic partnerships. In confidential marriages, no witnesses are required and the marriage license is not a matter of public record.
    * Married partners of state employees are eligible for the CalPERS long-term care insurance plan, domestic partners are not.
    * There is, at least according to one appellate ruling, no equivalent of the Putative Spouse Doctrine for domestic partnerships. [3]

    In addition to these differences specific to state law, should the Defense of Marriage Act be found unconstitutional or repealed, married persons in California might enjoy all the federal benefits of marriage, including Constitutionally-required recognition of their relationships as marriages in the rest of the United States under the Full Faith and Credit Clause.
    One other important thing. A domestic partnership is not transferrable to many other nations, or even other States, in the way that a marriage would be. Marriage licensing is "stronger" for this reason, or even civil unions which, as of now, are outlawed for gays.

    Also, the term "marriage" is significant to a lot of people, such as gays who are religious. They should have the ability to get married in the church of their faith if that church is willing to perform the ceremony. As it stands, they cannot do that because the law makes the decision for all churches. IMO this also steps upon the religious freedoms of churches and their communities who are in favor of same-sex marriage, and there are many.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I dunno, I still think there are a few hurdles to cross.
    Legaly speaking, yeah, there's a few wrinkles in the Domestic Partnership law that need to be ironed out, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    I personally would love to see us start focusing more on helping those who are opposed to gay marriage to see things our way, and I think the way to do that is through kindness, respect, and exposure. We must understand that some may never change, but there are plenty of folks who will if we are willing to talk openly and diplomatically about the issue. If we can manage to do that, then I think we should begin pushing for acceptance on a national level.

    I've read your arguments on this subject, Jerry, and you make good points. If I may be so bold, you seem like the kind of person who could put aside any presuppositions and be willing to give homosexual couples a fair shot if gay marriage became legal in your state. But if we disrespect your beliefs and start blasting away at those who currently disagree with us on the issue... Well, I guess it would be difficult to convince anyone under those circumstances.
    It may surprise you to learn that I don't oppose gay marriage.

    I'm tolerant, and the very ****ing definition of tolerant allows me to express objection, so expressing my objection in no way means I oppose gay-marriage.

    SD put the issue to a vote a few years ago, and I chose not to vote either way on the issue. I left that portion of the ballot blank.

    I don't support gay-marriage and because of that I'm accused of opposing it.
    I don't buy into the bull**** surrogate arguments presented in these threads by pro-gm and because I don't drink their kool-aid I'm accused of being a homophobe.

    I practice tolerance, I refrain from injecting my personal religious opinion into law, and yes while I'm remodeling a gay couple's kitchen I treat them with the up most respect just as I do with every other client.

    I know my motivations and if others can't see that I walk the walk with my religion then that's their problem.

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