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Thread: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

  1. #421
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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    All this talk about personal responsibility when states like Mississippi piggyback the richer states and still remain the poorest. You're the very definition of welfare states. Please do not come here talking about money to make your case. You're really messing with the wrong dog. California simply isn't in the same league as Mississippi. You want to talk about responsibility? Write to your Governors and tell them to stop, as Republicans like to say when it suits them, 'stealing' money.
    I'm not going to even begin to try to how illustrate how poverty stricken this state actually is, it's astounding the conditions that some people still live in in this day and age. However, there are two little things you overlooked when you posted your data and drew your conclusion --

    First, California has a population of 36,756,666 according to the latest census figures. Mississippi has a population of 2,998,618 - which makes this state about the size of the Sacramento and Modesto Metropolitan Statistical Areas combined. Or, put another way, California has 12.25 times the population of Mississippi. Needless to say, California has a significantly larger tax base, more industry, and generates more revenue. California is like the New York Yankees of the fifty states - a huge revenue stream.

    Secondly, instead of using info from some unknown group with an agenda, let's look at what Uncle Sam himself says, shall we? According to the Federal Aid to States for Fiscal Year 2005 published by the Census Department - Mississippi is 11th on the list, behind other more noteworthy states such as Wyoming, Alaska, New York, North Dakota, Montana, New Mexico, Maine, Vermont, West Virginia, and Rhode Island in the amount of federal aid received per capita.

    If you look at the FAS data for 2006 here, you'll see that Mississippi moved up into the #3 position. In 2007 here, Mississippi dropped down a slot to #4.

    But, before you jump to conclusions about how that proves Mississippi is a welfare state and lives off of tax revenues from other states, keep in mind one little thing that occurred to cause this sudden jump in per capita Federal spending -- here's a hint... seven letters, starts with a "K", and tore the bejeezus out of the Gulf coast in September of 2006.

    As before, this is a poor state, no doubt about it. They're trying to attract industry to the "New South", and prior to the economic downturn of recent had managed to build a huge Nissan/Infiniti auto plant, as well as a Toyota engine manufacturing plant.

    It takes time to undo years of neglect and bring Mississippi into the 21st century, but slowly but surely we're getting there.

    And as I've explained to you. In California the very opposite has happened. Every year the pro-gay marriage movement gains more support. That you fail to acknowledge that California is not Mississippi because of a silly analogy regarding being unable to drink is ridiculous. Two different issues. Two different states. Two different ruling ideologies.
    You never took any Political Science classes in college, did you? Regardless of the issue, the principal is still the same - bring a defeated issue to the ballot too many times, and you can encounter voter backlash. If you can't grasp that concept - irrrespective of the state, issue, or ideology - then I really can't explain it to you.

    If it does I will bet you anything it will be by a smaller margin then before.
    We will see, we will see.

    BTW - FWIW, I support same-sex marriage. I see no reason why a homosexual couple shouldn't be allowed to marry and be as miserable as we hetrosexual couples are...

    Woof, woof.
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  3. #423
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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    In several threads I have seen you trying to defend or support more federal power, particularly that of the judiciary. Perhaps that is an unrepresentative sample of your views but it has been my experience of them.
    The judiciary is an equal branch of government. I'm getting sick and tired of watching individual rights being trampled upon by both state and federal government. The judiciary has the right to intervene to protect such rights and I welcome it whenever it happens.

    Where we differ is what we believe rights to be. If you don't see it as a right, naturally you'd view intervention by the judiciary as judicial activism; ie, legislating from the bench. Whereas, if I see it as a right, then it isn't judicial activism when the courts intervene to protect it.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Is a minority housing grant unconstitutional?
    Any grant that uses tax dollars and is awarded to a specific group, thereby disqualifying all other groups, is discriminatory and unconstitutional.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    There are way to many pages to read through it all so I'll just say this based on the first few pages. (vbulletin really needs thread specific searches that returns pages instead of dropping you off on page 1 every time).

    I see no problem with this being on the ballot every year a following large enough is able to get it on the ballot. I would also have no problem with those wishing to overturn it having it on the ballot once this passes. Why? Because the government shouldn't be able to dictate what citizens can and cannot vote on if there is a large enough following wanting to vote on it.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
    - Warren Buffett

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    Wow this is obviously big news. This thread hasn't even been here a day and there are 40 pages!

    I guess I can't really debate any point that hasn't already been said, so I'll just say this.

    I think what the court did was right, in light of the constitutional amendment, but I personally believe the amendment itself was wrong and an affront to civil liberty. As an outside observer of U.S. politics, I learned something very valuable on the day that Prop 8 passed: that State constitutions are meaningless. If only 51% of a popular vote is required to modify it, then it's not worth the paper it is written on. Letting a slim-majority mob alter such an important document is a joke, especially when it comes to the private lives and families of so many people.

    More importantly, this issue isn't just going to go away. In a nation like the U.S. that upholds pluralism and popular protest, the issue will be overturned eventually, especially in a place like CA. It's just a matter of time, as history has shown. The Prop 8 amendment didn't pass by very much in the first place, and GM proponents will not stop until more people realize what a shame it is.

    The gay rights movement in general has always faced an uphill battle. Harvey Milk knew this when he had to run for office four times before getting elected to his district in San Fran, and he knew it when he had to face the "Save Our Children" campaign lead by Anita Bryant. Gays suffered civil defeat many times before their awareness campaigns finally got people to wake up.

    People will try to separate the issue by saying gay marriage is not about gay rights, but about the creation of a new right. Whether or not it is is not the issue to gay people. They want to get married, and so they eventually shall. No other moral imperative is goign to stop them.
    Under Prop8 gays have all the civil rights, so there's nothing left to fight for, they won.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Under Prop8 gays have all the civil rights, so there's nothing left to fight for, they won.
    I'm not going to go down that line of discussion with you Jerry. You know damn well what I mean, even if you disagree with it.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Under Prop8 gays have all the civil rights, so there's nothing left to fight for, they won.
    You didn't do your homework. I'm going to have to mark you down for that.

    Seriously, get better informed or get off the thread. By just repeating something that is factually incorrect, you're not adding anything the discussion.


    'The Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor!!" Get it? You sound ridiculous.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Can anyone explain to me how the CASC decision was unsound?
    That is, can you tell me how the decision was wrong?

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I'm not going to go down that line of discussion with you Jerry. You know damn well what I mean, even if you disagree with it.
    Yeah you're talking about social issues on a legal thread, don't you see the error there?

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