Page 41 of 52 FirstFirst ... 31394041424351 ... LastLast
Results 401 to 410 of 518

Thread: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

  1. #401
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Last Seen
    12-26-10 @ 06:57 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    8,083

    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Wow this is obviously big news. This thread hasn't even been here a day and there are 40 pages!

    I guess I can't really debate any point that hasn't already been said, so I'll just say this.

    I think what the court did was right, in light of the constitutional amendment, but I personally believe the amendment itself was wrong and an affront to civil liberty. As an outside observer of U.S. politics, I learned something very valuable on the day that Prop 8 passed: that State constitutions are meaningless. If only 51% of a popular vote is required to modify it, then it's not worth the paper it is written on. Letting a slim-majority mob alter such an important document is a joke, especially when it comes to the private lives and families of so many people.

    More importantly, this issue isn't just going to go away. In a nation like the U.S. that upholds pluralism and popular protest, the issue will be overturned eventually, especially in a place like CA. It's just a matter of time, as history has shown. The Prop 8 amendment didn't pass by very much in the first place, and GM proponents will not stop until more people realize what a shame it is.

    The gay rights movement in general has always faced an uphill battle. Harvey Milk knew this when he had to run for office four times before getting elected to his district in San Fran, and he knew it when he had to face the "Save Our Children" campaign lead by Anita Bryant. Gays suffered civil defeat many times before their awareness campaigns finally got people to wake up.

    People will try to separate the issue by saying gay marriage is not about gay rights, but about the creation of a new right. Whether or not it is is not the issue to gay people. They want to get married, and so they eventually shall. No other moral imperative is goign to stop them.

  2. #402
    Sage
    scourge99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    The Wild West
    Last Seen
    01-27-12 @ 02:50 AM
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    6,233

    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    That's cause you get to mow the lawn with no shirt. I have to sweat it out.
    Well if the movement ever gets started I'll support it... but I have ulterior motives
    If you believe in the Supernatural then you can become a millionaire!

    Questioning or criticizing another's core beliefs is inadvertently perceived as offensive and rude.

  3. #403
    Student
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Last Seen
    08-26-17 @ 12:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    192

    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Well I'm not going to read the previous 40 pages as I'd expect that the majority is just a lot of whining and spinning by all the gay advocates on this board. So after endless threads about this issue in the last few years, the definition of marriage here in California IS settled for now. And WE WON period. The other obvious reality is you advocates have spent all your influence manipulating backdoor judicial and political strings around the people, and its OVER for now. They can't do anything for yuh anymore. Get used to it. It's in our constitution now and the courts AGREED...that is it. So all your endless blabbering of how it was going to happen "whether you like it or not" (thanks yet again Gavin!) has come up short just as I have been predicting.

  4. #404
    Dorset Patriot
    Wessexman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia(but my heart is back in Dorset.)
    Last Seen
    10-17-17 @ 04:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    8,468

    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    As an outside observer of U.S. politics, I learned something very valuable on the day that Prop 8 passed: that State constitutions are meaningless. If only 51% of a popular vote is required to modify it, then it's not worth the paper it is written on. Letting a slim-majority mob alter such an important document is a joke, especially when it comes to the private lives and families of so many people.
    In the end a majority can always up-end a constitution if it really wants to, only armed force and repression could stop it, the appropriate solution is as you hint to try and make it so a higher majority is required rather than say putting the power in any office or tribunal to stop such such act.

    This issue is of course complicated by the fact it was aimed at over turning of a piece of judicial activism rather than an entrenched constitutional right.
    More importantly, this issue isn't just going to go away. In a nation like the U.S. that upholds pluralism and popular protest, the issue will be overturned eventually, especially in a place like CA. It's just a matter of time, as history has shown. The Prop 8 amendment didn't pass by very much in the first place, and GM proponents will not stop until more people realize what a shame it is.
    You are correct, I doubt the media or the establishment will allow the issue to lie, I saw a terribly biased news article on BBC world about it today.

    I'm a moderate supporter of gay civil unions at least but damn am I sick of a lot of the pro-GM group.

    People will try to separate the issue by saying gay marriage is not about gay rights, but about the creation of a new right. Whether or not it is is not the issue to gay people. They want to get married, and so they eventually shall. No other moral imperative is goign to stop them.
    No doubt the Gracchi felt the same way.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 05-27-09 at 03:31 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  5. #405
    Sage
    Hatuey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    42,091

    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by SpotsCat View Post
    You're absolutely correct, Mississippi isn't California, thank God! (BTW - I'm from St. Louis, so snarky comments about The Magnolia State really don't offend me.)

    Although California may be a few hundred light years ahead of Mississippi in their history of civil rights and freedoms, Mississippi is only looking at a $480M budget deficit for 2010, while California is looking at a $33.9B shortfall. The Magnolia State may have been behind the curve in civil rights, but they're far and away ahead of The Golden State in terms of governmental fiscal responsibility!
    Poverty

    1. Mississippi :

    Poverty Rates in Mississippi: Poor People are Isolated to Areas Along Mississippi River | Suite101.com

    With a poverty rate of 19.3%, Mississippi has the highest poverty rate in the United States, just ahead of Louisiana.
    Where the Worst Poverty in Mississippi Occurs


    Critical poverty rates in Mississippi are very isolated on the western side of Mississippi along the Mississippi River.

    Counties that are considered to have critical poverty rates have poverty rates which are at least 50% higher than the state average. To have a county poverty rate that much higher than the highest state poverty rate in the United States means a lot.

    Read more: Poverty Rates in Mississippi: Poor People are Isolated to Areas Along Mississippi River | Suite101.com
    2. California :

    Poverty Rates in California: The Working Poor in Major Cities are Hurt More | Suite101.com

    With a poverty rate of 13.2%, California has the 17th highest poverty rate in the country.

    This is just slightly better than the poverty rate of Montana, but just slightly higher than the poverty rate of Missouri.

    Though California is not as bad as other high population states such as New York or Texas, it still translates into a little more than 4,800,000 people living in poverty.
    Where the Worst Poverty in California Occurs

    Read more: Poverty Rates in California: The Working Poor in Major Cities are Hurt More | Suite101.com
    Amount of money the receive for every money they give :

    Table: Per-Capita Tax Burden and Return on Tax Dollar

    1. Missippi :

    Mississppi 1.70
    1. California :

    California 0.83
    All this talk about personal responsibility when states like Mississippi piggyback the richer states and still remain the poorest. You're the very definition of welfare states. Please do not come here talking about money to make your case. You're really messing with the wrong dog. California simply isn't in the same league as Mississippi. You want to talk about responsibility? Write to your Governors and tell them to stop, as Republicans like to say when it suits them, 'stealing' money.

    Anyway... the point I was trying to make previously - which apparently went past you like a Randy Johnson 4-seam fastball - is that if a special-interest group keeps bringing a previously defeated issue to the ballot time and time again, they run the very real risk of not having it passed, and encountering voter backlash at having to re-vote down an issue that was previously voted down, resulting in a greater margin of defeat.
    And as I've explained to you. In California the very opposite has happened. Every year the pro-gay marriage movement gains more support. That you fail to acknowledge that California is not Mississippi because of a silly analogy regarding being unable to drink is ridiculous. Two different issues. Two different states. Two different ruling ideologies.

    If you choose to accept that as political fact, or write it off as merely endemic to us redneck, trailer park livin', incestuous, white trash, rednecks is wholly up to you. Just try not to act too surprised should Prop #8 fail again in 2010.
    If it does I will bet you anything it will be by a smaller margin then before.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 05-27-09 at 03:35 AM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

  6. #406
    Professor
    CrusaderRabbit08's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    05-13-10 @ 02:41 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,022

    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    I think what the court did was right, in light of the constitutional amendment, but I personally believe the amendment itself was wrong and an affront to civil liberty.
    Actually, the state supreme court got it wrong. Prop 8 violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution and States are not allowed to violate the Constitution.

    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. - 14th Amendment
    We need a gutsy court ruling, like the Burger court's landmark decision in Roe v Wade (1973), to strike down all marriage laws in this country as unconstitutional. Denying marriage based upon gender denies those individuals equal protection of the law.

    Will SCOTUS take it up? I don't see it right now, because this court doesn't have what it takes to do the right thing; and the right thing in this case would be a very explosive ruling.

    There are still too many bigots in this country who feel laws should be based upon emotion and not the Constitution. Such irrational thinking needs to dwindle to a minority before the Supremes will work up the nerve to strike down marriage laws and force States to recognize gay marriage.

  7. #407
    Dorset Patriot
    Wessexman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia(but my heart is back in Dorset.)
    Last Seen
    10-17-17 @ 04:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    8,468

    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    Actually, the state supreme court got it wrong. Prop 8 violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution and States are not allowed to violate the Constitution.



    We need a gutsy court ruling, like the Burger court's landmark decision in Roe v Wade (1973), to strike down all marriage laws in this country as unconstitutional. Denying marriage based upon gender denies those individuals equal protection of the law.

    Will SCOTUS take it up? I don't see it right now, because this court doesn't have what it takes to do the right thing; and the right thing in this case would be a very explosive ruling.

    There are still too many bigots in this country who feel laws should be based upon emotion and not the Constitution. Such irrational thinking needs to dwindle to a minority before the Supremes will work up the nerve to strike down marriage laws and force States to recognize gay marriage.
    Vive the revolution! Vive the liberal committee on public safety!

    There are still too many liberals who think constitutions should be based on what they damn well feel like rather than established and original meanings. As the equal protection clause was not meant to include GM and has never done so your argument is fallacious. You are in effect advocating the arbitrary power of the federal judiciary be used to override the rule of law and the constitution to validate your own political ideology.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 05-27-09 at 03:46 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  8. #408
    Professor
    CrusaderRabbit08's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    05-13-10 @ 02:41 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,022

    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    Vive the revolution! Vive the liberal committee on public safety!

    There are still to many liberals who think constitutions should be based on what they damn well feel like rather than established and original meanings. As the equal protection clause was not meant to include GM and has never done so your argument is fallacious. You are in effect advocating the arbitrary power of the federal judiciary be used to override the rule of law and the constitution to validate your own political ideology.
    Guess what? I'm not a liberal.

  9. #409
    Dorset Patriot
    Wessexman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Sydney, Australia(but my heart is back in Dorset.)
    Last Seen
    10-17-17 @ 04:17 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    8,468

    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    Guess what? I'm not a liberal.
    You are clearly socially liberal and have liberal, as in the modern meaning of various forms of social liberalism, social democracy and such, ideas on gov't. You are no traditionalist or social conservative nor have such ideas on gov't certainly.

    I did not directly call you one though.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

  10. #410
    Professor
    CrusaderRabbit08's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    05-13-10 @ 02:41 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,022

    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    As the equal protection clause was not meant to include GM and has never done so your argument is fallacious. You are in effect advocating the arbitrary power of the federal judiciary be used to override the rule of law and the constitution to validate your own political ideology.
    The Equal Protection Clause says what it says and its meaning is quite clear: No State shall.. ..deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    A lack of any previous rulings does not invalidate any future rulings.

    If you don't like it, then amend the Constitution and place restrictions upon the Equal Protection Clause. Right now, no such restrictions exist.

    The 14th Amendment itself, is rather lengthy; so it wouldn't have been difficult for those drafting it to place restrictions upon it. Since they didn't, it's ludicrous to think that restrictions exist just because the amendment was primarily drafted to protect the rights of former slaves.

Page 41 of 52 FirstFirst ... 31394041424351 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •