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Thread: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Singularity View Post
    Jerry;

    I went back and read the California Domestic Partnership law and it's subsequent amendments/additions, and it appears that California is, in fact, doing away with many of the inequalities. So many of the differences outlined in my post are currently being dealt with, or have been dealt with recently, by the California legislature.

    I would love to see homosexual marriage become a reality and accepted by most people. I'm not sure you see it the way I do, but in any case, thanks for your updates on California law. I think it would be awesome if somehow those of us in favor of homosexual marriage could make you see it our way, but if we can't, your opinion is your own and I respect it, even if I disagree with it.

    Take care and thanks again.
    I couldn't find solutions for some of the problems presented with Domestic Partnership. However it is my firm belief that the easiest, fastest and best way to fix those problems is by addressing them one by one with existing CA law.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The "sanctity of marriage" arguments sound pretty close to me.

    But regardless, the rationale behind the law is not as important as the actual impact of them. Those interracial marriage laws are unconstitutional REGARDLESS of what the rationale is, since not everyone had the same rationale for them. Similarly, anti-gay marriage laws are unconstitutional regardless of what the rationale is.
    They're only unconstitutional if gays are denied civil rights.

    Gays are not denied civil rights as they have access to all of them under existing Domestic Partnership law.

    Therefore it's perfectly constitutional.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The "sanctity of marriage" arguments sound pretty close to me.

    But regardless, the rationale behind the law is not as important as the actual impact of them. Those interracial marriage laws are unconstitutional REGARDLESS of what the rationale is, since not everyone had the same rationale for them. Similarly, anti-gay marriage laws are unconstitutional regardless of what the rationale is.

    But I would think with interracial marriage you would argue that all men are equal regardless of skin color thus it's wrong to argue one man is more or less equal than another.

    With same sex marriage you are forced into the argument that gender is interchangeable.

    In other words it becomes an argument of a black man and a white man are the same vs a man and a woman are the same. One is a much easier argument than the other.
    Last edited by talloulou; 05-27-09 at 02:08 AM.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    But it was a racial discrimination where skin color dictated who you could or couldn't marry.
    And now its sexual orientation discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    This is gender discrimination which is rampant.
    Actually its sexual orientation. Not simply gender.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    So for arguments sake I suppose the courts could step in and declare there could be no gender discrimination in regards to marital pacts. They could then defend age discrimination in marital restrictions by arguing minors can't be legally bound by contracts. And those who wanted multiple marital partners would be grasping at straws in trying to find the label for the discrimination they were suffering.
    The slippery slope defense is hardly convincing. But if you'd like to discuss the nuances between the issues we can.

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    However gender discrimination is allowed and supported in a variety of arenas.
    And for legitimate reasons. For example, men can't have babies or become pregnant so men arguing for male breastfeeding laws or maternity leave is silly (though maternity leave is provided to males by some employers).
    Last edited by scourge99; 05-27-09 at 02:09 AM.
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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The point is that you CANNOT create two parallel institutions even if you make them equal under the law (which they aren't). "Separate but equal" institutions are unconstitutional.
    Then you have to disolve the states.

    Brown, in no way, tossed out "separate but equal" stations.

    Brown simply decided....

    We conclude that in the field of public education the doctrine of "separate but equal" has no place. Separate educational facilities are inherently unequal. Therefore, we hold that the plaintiffs and others similarly situated for whom the actions have been brought are, by reason of the segregation complained of, deprived of the equal protection of the laws guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment.
    Again, if you toss out "separate but equal", you have to dissolve the very states themselves.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Sexual orientation isn't concrete though. What if someone is bisexual and their only means of being completely happy is building a family that consists of two men and a woman and they want legal recognition of a three way marriage?

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    The question of equality in this instance doesn't mean much. It cannot be specified, gays have equal rights today and yet they want equal rights, both situations are equal, they include different circumstances but to say which is more equal is a rather meaningless activity. It has to be something more than generalised calls for equality that the argument for GM rests on.

    Then of course when invoking equality one has to consider exactly the value of equality is. Sure there is a degree needed in certain areas but then again extreme egalitarianism itself can be very dangerous, as old conservative wisdom can tell you, distinctions between groups and individuals are vital in maintaining liberty, so a simple call for equality, even if one could meaningfully say one situation was the true one of equality, itself must be looked at in detail and analysised to some degree with caution.
    Last edited by Wessexman; 05-27-09 at 02:20 AM.
    "It is written in the eternal constitution that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." - Edmund Burke

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    The question of equality in this instance doesn't mean much. It cannot be specified, gay have equal rights today and yet they want equal rights, both situations are equal, they include different circumstances but to say which is more equal is a rather meaningless activity. It has to be something more than generalised calls for equality that the argument for GM rests on.

    Then of course when invoking equality one has to consider exactly the value of equality is. Sure there is a degree needed in certain areas but then again extreme egalitarianism itself can be very dangerous, as old conservative wisdom can tell you, distinctions between groups and individuals are vital in maintaining liberty, so a simple call for equality, even if one could meaningfully say one situation was the true one of equality, itself must be looked at in detail and analysised to some degree with caution.
    I didn't follow this, I'm sorry to say.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    No. But as long as the government is restricting marriage, involved in marriage we are going to have this issue of how or why they restrict certain things.
    Oh so you are for government involvment as long as it agrees to what you want.

    Thank you for noting that you are for big government.

    You are about as conservative as a liberal.
    Last edited by TheNextEra; 05-27-09 at 02:18 AM.

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    Re: California Supreme Court Upholds Proposition 8

    Quote Originally Posted by talloulou View Post
    Sexual orientation isn't concrete though. What if someone is bisexual and their only means of being completely happy is building a family that consists of two men and a woman and they want legal recognition of a three way marriage?
    Then he needs to name one or the other irreplaceable to himself and then work out the goings on of his own household in private.

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