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Thread: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

  1. #341
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    Re: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I cannot find specific examples from the New Haven test but, if a firefighter test asked for the chemical breakdown of a specific type of plastic, that answer would favor applicants with an education in college level chemistry, which might favor white applicants.
    No. It will favor people who can answer the question.

    If people need to go to college to answer the questions and the questions need to be answered to get promoted to fire chief, then it's the people who choose to go to college who get the jobs. If people choose not to go to college then they have no standing to argue that the test was at fault. All that can be shown is that they made bad choices and lost out. Tough for them, but they made the choice.

    The purpose of the test is to find those candidates best trained for the job. The test is saying that Joe Black isn't trained enough, and instead of arguing that the test is unfair, the little whiny bastard should put his nose to the grindstone and get the education he needs to meet the standards.

    Don't you clowns have the least shred of a bit of apprehension at the thought of the lives you're putting at risk when you continually lower standards to meet your unrealistic assumption that black men only fail because whites are out to get them?

    Remember the Baake decision? The one where Baake sued that he was discriminated against because he was better qualified for that seat in med school than the black man the school seated because of Affirmative Action? Yeah, the black guy graduated and became a purveyor of vitally needed liposuction services in Compton. That career came to an end when he sent a patient home who later died of internal bleeding.

    Lower standards, the natural comcomitant of always blaming the white guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    Tests can be devised to weed out minorities, it's a remnant of Jim Crow that still exists.
    What has to be demonstrated is that the test in question was deliberately arranged to that purpose. The mere fact that black people fail it in droves is not in itself evidence to that effect. That fact merely proves that blacks weren't qualified to be fire chief.

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    Re: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That is entirely unlike what I wrote. You are intentionally bating, and I am not interested.
    No, I'm intentionally pointing out that the fact that just because a bunch of people fail a test isn't evidence that the test is racist.

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    Re: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

    Ok, I got to the appeal court ruling, and what a shock. here it is in full:

    UPON CONSIDERATION WHEREOF, IT IS HEREBY ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED that the judgment of the district court is AFFIRMED.

    Plaintiffs appeal from a judgment of the United States District Court for the District of Connecticut (Arterton, J.) granting the defendants’ motion for summary judgment on all counts.

    We affirm, substantially for the reasons stated in the thorough, thoughtful, and well-reasoned opinion of the court below. In this case, the Civil Service Board found itself in the unfortunate position of having no good alternatives. We are not unsympathetic to the plaintiffs’ expression of frustration. Mr. Ricci, for example, who is dyslexic, made intensive efforts that appear to have resulted in his scoring highly on one of the exams, only to have it invalidated. But it simply does not follow that he has a viable Title VII claim. To the contrary, because the Board, in refusing to validate the exams, was simply trying to fulfill its obligations under Title VII when confronted with test results that had a disproportionate racial impact, its actions were protected.

    The judgment of the district court is AFFIRMED.
    This is somewhat controversial for reasons this quote explains:

    The panel was criticized by Circuit Judge Jose A. Cabranes for adopting in full the ruling of U.S. District Court Judge Janet Bond Arterton without any elaboration or affirmation, something that is usually reserved for clear-cut, uncomplicated cases.
    Note that there is far from universal criticism of the ruling, with another judge saying that if they 3 judge panel agreed with the original ruling in all it's specifics, "why not affirm it".

    Source for followup information: High court candidate’s ruling scrutinized

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    Re: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No, I'm intentionally pointing out that the fact that just because a bunch of people fail a test isn't evidence that the test is racist.
    A claim I have never made, nor is it what the court ruled.

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    Re: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    246. Thus, it is necessarily
    undisputed that, had minority firefighters challenged the results
    of the examinations, the City would have been in a position of
    defending tests that, under applicable Guidelines, presumptively
    had a disparate racial impact.
    "presumptively"?

    One can state explicitly that if blacks can't pass the fire chiefs test that it has a specific and demonstrated disparate racial impact.

    Guess what?

    So what? Who cares? The issue should be then why are blacks failing the test. Assuming that the test is at fault misses the real issue, doesn't it? The issue is that blacks are leading lives that leave them unprepared for promotion and advancement. Blaming the test or the test givers misses the real issue, namely that the blacks have to change their lifestyle if they want to compete.

    The playing field is level. I mean, would it be racist to have a 10,000 meter race and all the blacks zoomed past the whites, because the blacks stayed in training for the race while the whites stayed home studying for the firechief's exam?

    So, if the blacks don't stay in training for the firechief's exam, that's their problem, the playing field was level, they didn't bother to train for the event.

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    Re: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A claim I have never made, nor is it what the court ruled.
    The claim is that the EEOC uses the success/failure rate as a measure of the racial impact of a test, which is purest bull.

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    Re: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    "presumptively"?

    One can state explicitly that if blacks can't pass the fire chiefs test that it has a specific and demonstrated disparate racial impact.

    Guess what?

    So what? Who cares? The issue should be then why are blacks failing the test. Assuming that the test is at fault misses the real issue, doesn't it? The issue is that blacks are leading lives that leave them unprepared for promotion and advancement. Blaming the test or the test givers misses the real issue, namely that the blacks have to change their lifestyle if they want to compete.

    The playing field is level. I mean, would it be racist to have a 10,000 meter race and all the blacks zoomed past the whites, because the blacks stayed in training for the race while the whites stayed home studying for the firechief's exam?

    So, if the blacks don't stay in training for the firechief's exam, that's their problem, the playing field was level, they didn't bother to train for the event.
    Judges cannot rule on that, they have to rule on what is in front of them, and the law. I do not like the ruling, but from reading it, I understand why he ruled that way, and why the appeals court agreed. By the way, that is 4 judges all agreeing that the case did not have merit from a legal standpoint.

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    Re: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    A claim I have never made, nor is it what the court ruled.
    Yeah, the court ruled that because there was a disparate racial impact that something had to be wrong with the test.

    That's the assumption being made when groups of people fail tests these days.

    Why isn't the assumption being made that the failed group of people didn't study enough?

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    Re: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    Yeah, the court ruled that because there was a disparate racial impact that something had to be wrong with the test.

    That's the assumption being made when groups of people fail tests these days.

    Why isn't the assumption being made that the failed group of people didn't study enough?
    Please prove that claim with quotes from the ruling. Note that I quoted several parts from the ruling, and the entire court of appeals ruling here in this very thread. If you are going to argue, you can at least do the same. It's not bad, the original ruling is only 46 pages.

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    Re: Obama to pick Sotomayer for Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    By the way, that is 4 judges all agreeing that the case did not have merit from a legal standpoint.
    That's called "argument from authority".

    Guess what? It doesn't support anyone's claim, it means that the four judges were wrong.

    The assumption that a test with a disparate racial impact is racially biased and should thus be discarded is illogical and should not be accepted as law by any court. That's not "judicial activism", that's the courts telling the legislators they 're not making any sense.

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