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Thread: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

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    Re: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Disney, I've explained my point on this to you countless times with each time you just sticking your fingers in your ears going "nah nah nah, not true, social conservatives suck, I know everything about them, nah nah nah nah nah". I have no desire to get into it again.

    Will they like it greatly? No. However, as long as they're not completely chucked out on their ass like some are suggesting or not completely ignored once republicans get power (like fiscal and governmental conservatives were), the vast majority are likely to still vote republican and be enthusiastic to varying levels because they're leagues better than the other main alternative and more realistic than alternatives more in line with their thinking. Its only when you completely throw a portion of the ideology into the garbage, like many liberals ignorant of this situation keep suggesting due to their own idiotic stereotypes, or when you almost completely ignore a portion of it once in power that you start seeing large groundswell for a third party, decided reduction in donations and support, and major voter apathy.
    But that's where I think your theory is wrong. Look....McCain tried to do that and they threatened to stay home in large numbers until he started pandering to them. I don't think that large numbers of the right-wing base stayed home and he still lost by fairly substantial numbers.
    I agree with you in theory.....the problem is, the GOP is way too afraid of the base to do what you suggest. True fiscal conservatives have lost control of the GOP and I doubt they are going to regain control of the party any time soon. The extreme right-wing base is never going to share control of the party as you suggest.
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    Re: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    But that's where I think your theory is wrong. Look....McCain tried to do that and they threatened to stay home in large numbers until he started pandering to them. I don't think that large numbers of the right-wing base stayed home and he still lost by fairly substantial numbers.
    I agree with you in theory.....the problem is, the GOP is way too afraid of the base to do what you suggest. True fiscal conservatives have lost control of the GOP and I doubt they are going to regain control of the party any time soon. The extreme right-wing base is never going to share control of the party as you suggest.
    Except your wrong.

    McCain was not a believable figure...in the least. McCain is not a balanced conservative either, so trying to prop him up as proof that my assertion is false is worthless. McCain made a career over the past 8 years of ripping conservatives, ripping evangelicals, siding with Democrats routinely, and even when siding with republicans doing so while insulting them out of the corner of his mouth. So no, when he got the nod the social conservative base simply didn't believe that he'd actually represent the things he was saying he would in regards to social issues let alone other issues. Look back at what I wrote, I stated it would take not only running on it but also actually DOING IT once you're in office. No one believed the later part would EVER happen with John McCain. He's a HORRIBLE example to try to prove me wrong, instead he's the PERFECT example of why trying to run Joe Moderate and expecting to get the base as a whole (As Social Conservatives weren't the only part of the base that wasn't keen on him, fiscal and governmentally focused conservatives weren't big on him either) is foolish.

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    Re: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Except your wrong.

    McCain was not a believable figure...in the least. McCain is not a balanced conservative either, so trying to prop him up as proof that my assertion is false is worthless. McCain made a career over the past 8 years of ripping conservatives, ripping evangelicals, siding with Democrats routinely, and even when siding with republicans doing so while insulting them out of the corner of his mouth. So no, when he got the nod the social conservative base simply didn't believe that he'd actually represent the things he was saying he would in regards to social issues let alone other issues. Look back at what I wrote, I stated it would take not only running on it but also actually DOING IT once you're in office. No one believed the later part would EVER happen with John McCain. He's a HORRIBLE example to try to prove me wrong, instead he's the PERFECT example of why trying to run Joe Moderate and expecting to get the base as a whole (As Social Conservatives weren't the only part of the base that wasn't keen on him, fiscal and governmentally focused conservatives weren't big on him either) is foolish.
    Not to beat a dead horse, but what can the GOP do to ensure that the religious crowd shows up to vote without a religious candidate on the ticket? The main argument I heard during the GOP primary was that none of the candidates, save Huckabee, were suited for the religious voters, so they stayed home on election day.

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    Re: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I don't think anyone is confused that Republicanism doesn't equal Conservatism. Notice, I didn't say that I'm unsure of Powel being a Republican, I'm just unsure of him truly being "Conservative". Again, not also saying "Liberal", but at the most he's a moderate with leans equally both ways.
    I think he is moderately conservative. I'm with you on this.

    The issue is this move to the middle by the GOP, which I think is less as prevalent as you think in regards to the majority of its base, being found mostly in those closest to the media.
    I'm curious as to how you get there from here. As an example I present to you the nomination of John McCain, who was carried by a decent majority within the GOP.
    While not all Democrats are dyed in the wool liberal, the parties identity and general starting point IS liberal. The Republican Party doesn't need to be ALL dyed in the wool conservatives, but it HAS to have a party identity of staunch Conservatism at its core.
    Why? So it can be different than the liberals? When you say this it sounds as though you are advocating for the duopoly of the political system in spite of what party members may actually want.

    The reason many people are happy to reject the moderate conservatives to liberal members of the Republican Party right now is that the parties leadership has let it lurch so far to the "middle" now that its disenfranchised and pissed off a great deal of its base and they're sick of it. They feel its time for a purge and that the only way to get back to a conservative starting point is to focus on actual conservatives. Once you relay the foundation, THEN you can start adding on those of a more moderated stance.
    Maybe the moderates are trying to purge the staunch conservatives. Ever think about that?
    *insert profound statement here*

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    Re: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    I'm curious as to how you get there from here. As an example I present to you the nomination of John McCain, who was carried by a decent majority within the GOP.
    McCain's nomination in the primary is a diverse thing.

    For one, you had "The base" split between Romney, Huck, and Paul with some also leaning towards Rudy and McCain. However, for the most part, moderates seemed pretty set on McCain and Rudy, but Rudy was non-existant for the most part in this so you had McCain.

    It canibalized itself, with in the end it falling essentially between McCain and Huck, with the social conservatives backing Huck and the rest going "oh god...I'm not sure about either of these" andp robably taking a chance McCain had a better shot at beating Obama or Hillary.

    Why? So it can be different than the liberals? When you say this it sounds as though you are advocating for the duopoly of the political system in spite of what party members may actually want.
    In a word, yes.

    I'm advocating Duopoly because Monopoly of political ideas is bad. Its the same reason that I do NOT want moderates completely purged from the Republican party. You need the other side within any movement, or country, to keep things moderated a bit and to keep you continually re-examining things.

    You've got the Dems, and lets call them Coke.

    Then you have the Reps, and they have two choices to be...Diet Coke or Mountain Dew.

    The voters are the consumers, and for the sake of things lets say the consumers key thing is taste. Most of those consumers may not mind Diet Coke, but why buy Diet Coke when you can buy real Coke and get the full taste instead of the watered down sweetner? Sure, a few people may prefer the taste of Diet Coke but most people that want Coke are going to go full out for the real thing.

    With Mountain Dew you may very well find some people that go "Ugg, I don't like this at all" because its nothing like Coke at all. However, there's a better chance of getting a larger following than with Diet Coke because all those people that are going "I don't like Coke at all, but this seems interesting and I like it" are suddenly all gung ho for you.

    I'm advocating that the Republican foundation must be solidly conservative because without it there will be no national conservative message and no national debate other than to be Left or More Left and I don't think that's good...no more than I would think Right or More Right would be a good thing.

    Maybe the moderates are trying to purge the staunch conservatives. Ever think about that?
    Perhaps they are. Actually, I think that's EXACTLY what they're trying for....and I rebel against it, fight against it, and will happily try to remove those that are doing so because I think they are doing a detriment to the party, the ideology, and the country by doing so. I as a voter want a national party that represents my ideals at least in a majority way. I want a conservative party that is actually viable on a national scene and I'll be damned if I'm going to sit by and just go "Well, some big talking heads in washington want to dictate to us little people whats 'really best for us' so I'll just shut up and move along". **** no. Let them try to purge the staunch conservatives. If the Republican party is going to be of any use to this country, to conservatives, and to the majority of its base in the next 5 to 10 years that purge needs to be faught against and fail or we're condemned to probably 15 to 20 years of unthinking, unchecked, and absolutely worthless years of Left or More Left.

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    Re: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

    Where did this ridiculous view come from that any political party is one opinion, rather than a range? The GOP is and has been for a while the party ranging from center-right to far-right.

    Right now the centrists who decide elections are fed up with the Republicans of the last few years and have started voting Democrat. It is because of this shift that the Republican Party has become more right-wing, not the other way around: as it loses moderates, the "average member" becomes more conservative. It did not lose moderates by not being moderate enough. It lost moderates by being hypocritical and lacking clear values.

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    Re: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

    Quote Originally Posted by WillRockwell View Post
    I had no idea of the depth of your ignorance.
    That's because I'm not ignorant and you don't have any ideas at all.

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    Re: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Yeah...it couldn't POSSIBLY be because Powell, like most of America, thought Obama was clearly the better choice.
    Well, if that's what Powell thought, he, like the rest of the non-Americans for voted for Obama, was wrong.

    That state of affairs happens all the time on the left.

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    No....Powell recognized that Obama was a better leader and better capable to lead this country.
    Sure, because Powell could see that Obama's skin wasn't white.

    If you want to claim it isn't about race, you need to cite a demonstrated qualification that Obama has (he has none) that Skippy also cited in his endorsement of the Kandidate From Kenya.

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    Re: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Colin Powell's rationale, at the time he made the endorsement, can be found here: Powell endorses Obama for president - Meet the Press, online at MSNBC- msnbc.com
    So he says McCain picked Palin, a sound conservative with more qualifications to hold the office of President than the Democrat candidate and his plagiarizing running mate combined, wasn't a sound choice. Must be because she's not only a woman, but white, too.

    Skippy was unhappy at the "personal attacks" by the GOP on the Kenyan Kandidate, as if he's been totally blind to the tactics employed by the Democrats since the Reagan Era, tactics the Red Queen herself labeled "Politics of Personal Destruction". I guess he also missed The Messiah's deliberate introduction of racism into the campaign with his "dollar bill" comments. That couldn't be racist, right? After all, Obama is black, like Powell, and hence can't be racist.

    Seems pretty light on what Obama's qualifications are, though, merely mindlessly repeated attacks on the Republicans that he'd heard from others.

    AH! Here's a positive "qualification" he cites:

    “This is the time for outreach,” Powell said, saying the next president would have to “reach out and show the world there is a new administration that is willing to reach out.”
    He's saying Obama can kiss European ass better than McCain. Frankly, I don't see a need to kiss European ass at any time, and this "qualification" isn't valid.

    Here's this one...

    But as he examined both campaigns in the last few weeks, he said, he became “concerned” that “in the case of Mr. McCain, he was a little unsure how to deal with the economic problems.”
    So he's supporting a candidate who espouses all the wrong economic approaches, instead. Well, if Skippy is this ignorant, his opinion doesn't matter. Why does his opinion matter again? Oh, yeah, because he's black, he's a turncoat, and he's black.

    “Every day, there was a different approach,” he said, adding that he also “would have difficulty with two more conservative appointments to the Supreme Court.”
    See? Skippy isn't an American, even if he's registered in the GOP. He would have difficulty with judges that obeyed the Constitution.

    Yep, he came up with no real reasons, because his real reason is that Skippy's black and his Messiah is black, too.

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    Re: Powell cautions against a GOP slide to the right

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Except your wrong.

    McCain was not a believable figure...in the least. McCain is not a balanced conservative either, so trying to prop him up as proof that my assertion is false is worthless. McCain made a career over the past 8 years of ripping conservatives, ripping evangelicals, siding with Democrats routinely, and even when siding with republicans doing so while insulting them out of the corner of his mouth. So no, when he got the nod the social conservative base simply didn't believe that he'd actually represent the things he was saying he would in regards to social issues let alone other issues. Look back at what I wrote, I stated it would take not only running on it but also actually DOING IT once you're in office. No one believed the later part would EVER happen with John McCain. He's a HORRIBLE example to try to prove me wrong, instead he's the PERFECT example of why trying to run Joe Moderate and expecting to get the base as a whole (As Social Conservatives weren't the only part of the base that wasn't keen on him, fiscal and governmentally focused conservatives weren't big on him either) is foolish.

    No. McCain didn't do that over the last eight years.

    He made a career of doing that, period.

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