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Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

Re: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

Redress said:
That actually overstates it a bit. In one case, we got some intelligence using EIT's. There is no way to know if we would have gotten similar, or better, or nothing using standard interrogation methods.
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Damn shame folks have to make decisions without perfect knowledge, huh? All that taking of risks and chances and doing something because doing nothing amounts to suicide.

Horrors.
 
Re: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

celticlord said:
Damn shame folks have to make decisions without perfect knowledge, huh? All that taking of risks and chances and doing something because doing nothing amounts to suicide.

Horrors.
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Let's not exaggerate. Not torturing any prisoners would hardly have been suicide. I can see why you felt the need to exaggerate, since you had no real point without it, but it does not change the fact that it is a complete exaggeration.
 
Re: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

Redress said:
Let's not exaggerate. Not torturing any prisoners would hardly have been suicide. I can see why you felt the need to exaggerate, since you had no real point without it, but it does not change the fact that it is a complete exaggeration.
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Not exaggerating at all....not even a stretch of imagination.

You see, in the real world (that's this world, the one with both good and bad guys, just so you know), decisions are made all the time without perfect information....like whether a certain terrorist is more likely to talk after a shot of water up the nose or after tea and crumpets on the veranda. In the real world, interrogators don't get to peak into the future to know if this or that technique is going to win the race to unlock the terrorist tongue. They have to make these things called judgment calls--they have to decide which techniques are going to work on which terrorists, and they have to hope and pray they make the right call each time.

You're right to say that we don't know if other techniques might have been quicker for this or that terrorist. We also don't know how much worse those same alternative techniques might have been. And none of that amounts to a damn thing, because despite all the not knowing, interrogators still have to do their jobs, they still have to make hard calls, and they still don't get to indulge in your favorite fabianism of "wait and see."
 
Re: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

celticlord said:
Not exaggerating at all....not even a stretch of imagination.

You see, in the real world (that's this world, the one with both good and bad guys, just so you know), decisions are made all the time without perfect information....like whether a certain terrorist is more likely to talk after a shot of water up the nose or after tea and crumpets on the veranda. In the real world, interrogators don't get to peak into the future to know if this or that technique is going to win the race to unlock the terrorist tongue. They have to make these things called judgment calls--they have to decide which techniques are going to work on which terrorists, and they have to hope and pray they make the right call each time.

You're right to say that we don't know if other techniques might have been quicker for this or that terrorist. We also don't know how much worse those same alternative techniques might have been. And none of that amounts to a damn thing, because despite all the not knowing, interrogators still have to do their jobs, they still have to make hard calls, and they still don't get to indulge in your favorite fabianism of "wait and see."
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And none of that amounts to "suicide", which is what I commented on. No, you are right, no one knows what will work, or what won't. So we have to play the odds, and attempt to do what is best. But even if we guess wrong, it will hardly be suicide as you try and claim. You are exaggerating, which is the only way you can make your point be effective.

You are right, this is real life. It's not an episode of 24, where a little torture saves the country. That is a drama, it is not real.
 
Re: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

Redress said:
And none of that amounts to "suicide", which is what I commented on.
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Doing nothing (i.e., your approach) about terrorism might as well be. Dithering because you don't know what will happen if you use technique "A" or "B" only makes sure that no useful information will be gathered, that future terror attacks will not be stopped, and that lives will be lost.

At some point you have to get over yourself, deal with the fact that you don't know every last detail about things, and make a decision. Try it some time--the results might surprise you.
 
Re: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

celticlord said:
Doing nothing (i.e., your approach) about terrorism might as well be. Dithering because you don't know what will happen if you use technique "A" or "B" only makes sure that no useful information will be gathered, that future terror attacks will not be stopped, and that lives will be lost.

At some point you have to get over yourself, deal with the fact that you don't know every last detail about things, and make a decision. Try it some time--the results might surprise you.
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False, false and false. I do not, nor have I ever advocated doing nothing about terrorism. You are better than that lame attempt sir, much better. Please at least try and argue rationally.

No one is suggesting "dithering" about anything. We have many noncontroversial interrogation techniques which are known to work. Again, you are trying to suggest something that simply is not the case. No one wants any "dithering", we all want good intelligence. You can do better than this, I know you can.
 
Jerry said:
I embrace the effects of waterboarding...that's why I support it's employment.
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You didn't answer the question...have you experienced waterboarding? Your quote seems to indicate that you are not only able to tolerate the experience, but enjoy it. Could you explain further?
 
Maxientius said:
That was a sick joke and you are a sick person for even thinking that was funny.
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It was actually quite funny given the context in which he used it (Godwin's Law). It's the over the top nature of how he responded to the other poster. Pull that board out of your ass Max, if you do you won't have to **** standing up.
 
Re: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

celticlord said:
Doing nothing (i.e., your approach) about terrorism might as well be.
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Here is yet a prime example of your dishonest debate style. "Doing nothing" is not her approach and your assertion that it is suicide is profoundly absurd. You're building a straw man against her in order to support your suggestion in this case that torture is the only example of "doing something."

Dithering because you don't know what will happen if you use technique "A" or "B" only makes sure that no useful information will be gathered, that future terror attacks will not be stopped, and that lives will be lost.
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Again, you are suggesting that torture is the only way to gather information from captives. It's not.

At some point you have to get over yourself, deal with the fact that you don't know every last detail about things, and make a decision. Try it some time--the results might surprise you.
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Except that torture isn't the only decision you have to make. You're assuming all other options have been exhausted, and you've clearly not been able to substantiate that this was the case in any of the situations in which torture was used. In fact we have an FBI interrogator who gave testimony to a situation in which he and his team were making progress with a detainee and then the spooks came in and began their routine, which shut things down almost immediately.

Here is the chink in your armor. You are framing your argument against Redress (and anyone else who disagrees with you really) around the notion that if they don't endorse torture they endorse not doing anything. And that's not the case at all.

I spent several years as an interrogator (7 total in my job as a criminal investigator/investigative supervisor) and never had the option of using torture on suspects. I never needed it. I had a very good confession rate for a myriad of different crimes.

The bottom line is that net you advocate casting hasn't been proven to be "the net" you should cast. Ever.
 
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Re: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

Lerxst said:
Again, you are suggesting that torture is the only way to gather information from captives. It's not.
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Here is a prime example of why you should stop typing and read first. I suggest no such thing. Actually, it's the lunatic left that pretends the argument is an either/or proposition. That argument has never been made by any outside the lunatic left.

My excoriation of Redress was a very simple one--the endless pontificating of "we don't know if this...we don't know if that...." is a stupid, silly, and self-destructive way of going about anything, especially national security. My excoriation of Redress was simply this: people make decisions, generally without the benefit of perfect information, and if you want them to keep making decisions--i.e., "doing" instead of blubbering--you do not go around second guessing them based on what you yourself do not know.

As for waterboarding, what is known is this: it produced results. As for other techniques, what is known is this: they produced results. As for which technique is appropriate to which terrorist, what should be known is this: that judgment needs to be left to the interrogator charged with getting results.

That is, and has always been, my argument. Review my posts on this board, and you will not show I have ever advocated waterboarding to the exclusion of all else; I have not. Review my posts on this board, and you will show I have defended waterboarding. Review my posts on this board, and you will show that I have defended the interrogators, for having the courage and diligence to make the decisions necessary to proceed with doing their jobs.

"Wait and see" is bad crisis management strategy in any arena, and doubly so when the crisis is foreign terrorism. "Wait and see" in that arena amounts to "wait for the next plane to fly into the next building and see how many bodies are produced."
 
Lerxst said:
It was actually quite funny given the context in which he used it (Godwin's Law). It's the over the top nature of how he responded to the other poster. Pull that board out of your ass Max, if you do you won't have to **** standing up.
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There was nothing funny about that.
 
Re: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

Lerxst said:
Here is yet a prime example of your dishonest debate style. "Doing nothing" is not her approach and your assertion that it is suicide is profoundly absurd. You're building a straw man against her in order to support your suggestion in this case that torture is the only example of "doing something."
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Celtic already ripped you a new ass for saying something this stupid so i wont rip it further but i will ask: Are you capable of debating in civil manner in which, rather than attack your opponents, you actually debate the facts?
 
Maxientius said:
There was nothing funny about that.
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Oh bloody hell, Max, now you're putting me in the position of agreeing with Lerxst.

Yeah, it was funny. In a sick, perverse, "there's something about Mary" sort of way, it was downright hilarious.
 
celticlord said:
Oh bloody hell, Max, now you're putting me in the position of agreeing with Lerxst.

Yeah, it was funny. In a sick, perverse, "there's something about Mary" sort of way, it was downright hilarious.
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Oh bloody hell, celt, you're a sick bastard.
Laugh a little on the inside but don't say anything. That was a horrible joke and it was very offensive.
 
WillRockwell said:
You didn't answer the question...have you experienced waterboarding? Your quote seems to indicate that you are not only able to tolerate the experience, but enjoy it. Could you explain further?
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Enjoy it? Wtf?
 
WillRockwell said:
You didn't answer the question...have you experienced waterboarding? Your quote seems to indicate that you are not only able to tolerate the experience, but enjoy it. Could you explain further?
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I can't speak for Jerry, but I can say I would probably enjoy shooting water up a terrorist's nostrils. But then, as Max already pointed out, I am a sick bastard.:2razz:
 
celticlord said:
Oh bloody hell, Max, now you're putting me in the position of agreeing with Lerxst.

Yeah, it was funny. In a sick, perverse, "there's something about Mary" sort of way, it was downright hilarious.
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Ah HAH! we see his evil plan....
 
celticlord said:
Oh bloody hell, Max, now you're putting me in the position of agreeing with Lerxst.

Yeah, it was funny. In a sick, perverse, "there's something about Mary" sort of way, it was downright hilarious.
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No it wasn't funny in the least..it was just a dolt answer put forth when he was confronted with having the mentality of a torture condoning Nazi.

The response was lame and not funny in the least.
 
goldendog said:
No it wasn't funny in the least..it was just a dolt answer put forth when he was confronted with having the mentality of a torture condoning Nazi.

The response was lame and not funny in the least.
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ok if you say so..... :lol:
 
Re: Conservative radio hosts gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

celticlord said:
My excoriation of Redress was a very simple one--the endless pontificating of "we don't know if this...we don't know if that...." is a stupid, silly, and self-destructive way of going about anything, especially national security. My excoriation of Redress was simply this: people make decisions, generally without the benefit of perfect information, and if you want them to keep making decisions--i.e., "doing" instead of blubbering--you do not go around second guessing them based on what you yourself do not know.
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Do you ever bother to not misrepresent peoples positions? I have explained this, but since you are not paying attention, I doubt even this further explanation will work.

I am not now, nor have I suggested that any one make a decision, or not make a decision, based on what is not known. My whole premise with the "you do not know" is that you and yours make the assertion that torture was necessary. My whole point in that regard is that you do not know this, nor can you prove it.

So now, how exactly do you get government policy from "you can't prove" I do not know. The "you cannot prove" is internal to this debate, not to the government deciding how to handle things.

I do thank you for giving up on the whole overblown "suicide" line of argument though.
 
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