Very well, I look forward to your findings.There was a book I was listening to earlier that mentioned an Israeli interrogation (or maybe somebody else) that proved valuable. I'm going back through them to try to nail it down.
I can discuss both because both are relevant. I'm not moving the goalposts at all, I'm discussing the entire issue of torture and it's all within the scope of the debate. If you are uncomfortable playing on such a large field then don't play. But nobody has moved any goal posts here, and you can't show evidence of me doing this.There are 2 substantial problems with interrogation:
1) determining whether they have information. (pre-interrogation)
2) determining whether extracted information is legitimate. (post-interrogation)
You keep flip-flopping between #1 and #2. Pick one you want to discuss and stick with it before moving the goalposts to the other.
That's your opinion. The problem is that it's not "well established."I think its pretty well established that EIT has a fair chance at working when used on people who you know have information (assumes #1 is true). I don't know what percentage or the likelihood but its proven valuable on the few occasions where a government dares to disclose that its performed such an act.
Thus, terror DIDN'T work, per se. Because, if we are going to step into that realm, it better work a whole hellalot better than legal means. It actually is LESS effective, according to the FBI's lead interrogator.
Thus, waterboarding (and other enhanced interrogation methods), were a huge mistake, because not only did they demean our national identity, THEY FAILED TO DELIVER NEW INFORMATION. These tactics failed on TWO levels.
I'm not going to rely on my own claims, but I'll let the FBI's lead interrogator in this area speak for me:
The Agent In Place: Torture Didn't Work - The Atlantic Politics Channel
So, the term to describe waterboarding someone 83 times when time is of the essence: SLOW. Ineffective. Unreliable.The Senate Judiciary Committee hears testimony from former lead FBI counterterrorism agent Ali Soufan. Soufan calls "enhanced interrogation techniques" "ineffective, slow, unreliable" and therefore harmful, "aside from the important considerations that they are un-American and harmful to our case and reputation." Soufan describes the successful non-coercive interrogation of Al Qaeda terrorist Abu Jandal, who "identified many terrorists who we later successfully apprehended." Soufan describes an interrogation method he calls the "Informed Interrogation Approach," which seeks to capitalize on the natural fear that a detainee feels as a result of his custody by adopting a posture of openness and respect.
Soufan presents an interesting challenge to the Ticking Time Bomb Scenario. Noting that it took 83 waterboardings to force Khalid Shake Mohammed to cough up information, he describes that technique as "slow" and therefore unreliable when information needs to be obtained quickly. Soufan also provides an unclassified chronology of the joint FBI-CIA efforts to question Abu Zubaydah. He says that his early efforts to coax information out of the Al Qaeda operate were successful, and CIA director George Tenet prepared a congratulatory telegram. As soon as Tenet learned that FBI agents -- not his CIA team -- had taken the lead role in the interrogation, he withdrew the congratulations and sent a team from the CIA's counterterrorism center to the interrogation site. That team was assisted by a contractor who "instructed" the new CIA operatives in tougher interrogation techniques. According to Soufan, the new team began to use the EITs. Zubaydah stopped cooperating. Soon, the FBI was brought back in. Zubaydah opened up like a book.
That isn't "working".
Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 05-29-09 at 08:32 AM.
And in fact I am angry.
I am angry at the blubbering drivel being spewed by lunatics who would criminalize government policy--who would, to assuage their guilty consciences, crucify men and women who did their duty as they saw it to be, with authorizations and clarifications emanating from up the chain of command.
I am angry at the mewling and phony outrage that inspires those self-same self-righteous lunatics to engage in a witch hunt looking for crimes that do not exist and have never existed simply because they choose to pathologically hate President George W. Bush.
I am angry that these self-same self-righteous lunatics would offend the Constitution and the rule of law by pretending their indignant persecutions have any basis in law, justice, or even common decency.
I am indeed angry, and so I guess there's a bit less wrong with me than I first surmised....this is a good thing.
So again...thanks for sharing!
Last edited by celticlord; 05-29-09 at 09:58 AM.
In other words, you wish to ignore crimes against the American people.And in fact I am angry.
I am angry at the blubbering drivel being spewed by lunatics who would criminalize government policy
Witch hunt? When those unethical lawyers, who authored those torture memos, get disbarred will you then attack the bar?I am angry at the mewling and phony outrage that inspires those self-same self-righteous lunatics to engage in a witch hunt looking for crimes that do not exist and have never existed simply because they choose to pathologically hate President George W. Bush.
Bush and his goons raped our Constitution in so many ways it will cement his presidency as one of the worst in US history. He actually put into a version of the Patriot Act, that did not pass, ability to deport US citizens for what he tried to label as "terrorist acts". And these acts did not even have to be proven!I am angry that these self-same self-righteous lunatics would offend the Constitution and the rule of law by pretending their indignant persecutions have any basis in law, justice, or even common decency.
Spare me you bs outrage over "offending" the Constitution. Puh-leeze!
Me thinks you should stick with your first thought. It was the most accurate of this post.I am indeed angry, and so I guess there's a bit less wrong with me than I first surmised....this is a good thing.
Thank You Barack Obama for Restoring Honor To The Presidency.
President Obama will rank as one of our greatest presidents!
And that I do not ignore. I give it the proper scorn, contempt, and derision it and the lunatic left richly deserve.
I know the lunatic left has a strong allergy to reality, but take some Benadryl and deal with the reality: President Bush committed no crimes, nor did his Administration.