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Thread: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

  1. #381
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    Re: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

    Quote Originally Posted by dclxvinoise View Post
    That's exactly what I've been saying. How exactly claim the moral high ground when we engage in such activities? And I know a lot of people use 9/11 as an excuse and say that it was a game changer, but it's a slippery slope. When we get rid of a lot of the core values that make us great, before long there is little to separate us from our enemies.
    It hasn't been a slippery slope.

    They waterboarded suspected September 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and senior al Qaeda leaders Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri not long after 9/11 when we were still gathering info about Al Qaeda and were concerned another attack was imminent.

    How long are Americans going to keep attacking other Americans over what they did to keep us safe? I don't get it Those Al Qaeda operatives got off *easy* relatively speaking. More harm has been done by blowing this all out of proportion, imo. (and THAT was largely anti-Bush partison attacks - not saying you, but that is what happened).

    Your last line is just silly. Really.

    CIA says used waterboarding on three suspects | Reuters

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    Re: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    There exists no due process in regards to water boarding, sleep deprivation and other interogative techniques that I'm aware of other than getting the thumbs-up from a superior. My whole argument has been that I want to ESTABLISH rules, regulations, oversight, and accountability for such actions. This would help ensure stronger accountability and scrutiny than exists now.
    From a moral standpoint I absolutely cannot agree that we use torture for any reason.

    Though rarely occuring, there are compelling reasons why water boarding, sleep deprivation and other interogative techniques must remain available tools to protect and fight crime and terrorism. As long as due process is established and given when such techniques are used then I find no room for complaint
    .
    And I disagree. We can't claim we are on the side of righteousness when we do things like this.

    The only discussion left is what, if any, circumstances or scenarios allow for such techniques to be used. Obviously you think none exist. So we shall employ a thought experiment: if John Doe claims to have a bomb that is set to go off that will claim some unknown number of lives and there is suffcient corroborating evidence to believe this is true is it OK to water board him or sleep deprive him or use some other alternative interrogation technique in an attempt to extract information from him to avert his plan? At what number of lives lost or degree of certainty that john possesses such intel is required before such techniques are allowed?
    I will not play "step into my hypothetical trap." I will not compromise my position on this due to "mushroom cloud" type fear tactics. There is no evidence to suggest that torture is consistent or effective in gaining actionable information from suspects. Legalizing the use of such a mechanism is certain to result in unnecessary torture and abuse of the authority. We've already seen clear and convincing evidence of this. No amount of due process will change the nature of this heinous practice.
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    Re: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dix View Post
    It hasn't been a slippery slope.

    They waterboarded suspected September 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and senior al Qaeda leaders Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri not long after 9/11 when we were still gathering info about Al Qaeda and were concerned another attack was imminent.

    How long are Americans going to keep attacking other Americans over what they did to keep us safe? I don't get it Those Al Qaeda operatives got off *easy* relatively speaking. More harm has been done by blowing this all out of proportion, imo. (and THAT was largely anti-Bush partison attacks - not saying you, but that is what happened).

    Your last line is just silly. Really.

    CIA says used waterboarding on three suspects | Reuters
    It's a very slippery slope because water boarding is only one technique being used. We've abused detainees so badly during their captivity that they've died.
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    Re: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lerxst View Post
    From a moral standpoint I absolutely cannot agree that we use torture for any reason.

    .
    And I disagree. We can't claim we are on the side of righteousness when we do things like this.


    I will not play "step into my hypothetical trap." I will not compromise my position on this due to "mushroom cloud" type fear tactics. There is no evidence to suggest that torture is consistent or effective in gaining actionable information from suspects. Legalizing the use of such a mechanism is certain to result in unnecessary torture and abuse of the authority. We've already seen clear and convincing evidence of this. No amount of due process will change the nature of this heinous practice.
    Wallow in denial if you wish. Intel extracted from coersive interrogation techniques have been effective despite the inherent level of uncertainity in their effectiveness. If an example was provided would that sway your view? No, it wouldn't so don't waste our time peddleing disingenuous red-herrings.

    Your inability to engage in a simple thought experiment is proof enough of your mental cowardice. No mushroom clouds of traps necessary, just a simple question to highlight your myopic position.
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    Re: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Wallow in denial if you wish. Intel extracted from coersive interrogation techniques have been effective despite the inherent level of uncertainity in their effectiveness. If an example was provided would that sway your view? No, it wouldn't so don't waste our time peddleing disingenuous red-herrings.

    Your inability to engage in a simple thought experiment is proof enough of your mental cowardice. No mushroom clouds of traps necessary, just a simple question to highlight your myopic position.
    Wallow in denial if you wish. Intel extracted from coersive interrogation techniques have been effective despite the inherent level of uncertainity in their effectiveness....
    Um, isn't that a contradiction?
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    Re: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    Um, isn't that a contradiction?
    Such interrogation techniques have proven successful at extracting needed intel despite the fact that not every single interrogation attempt is guaranteed to extract needed information..

    I.E., it works X% of the time and X > 0.

    Does that make more sense to you?
    Last edited by scourge99; 05-28-09 at 09:04 PM.
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    Re: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Wallow in denial if you wish. Intel extracted from coersive interrogation techniques have been effective despite the inherent level of uncertainity in their effectiveness.
    Only very rarely, prove me wrong or prove yourself right. You cast that net, I'll side with the majority and say "no."
    If an example was provided would that sway your view? No, it wouldn't so don't waste our time peddleing disingenuous red-herrings.
    An example has already been provided. How do you gauge the effectiveness of a technique? Because out of 50 it worked on 2? Do you consider all the bad information you got as a result of people saying whatever they could to make it stop? Do you count all the experts whose experience says that it doesn't work? Or do you change the litmus test for effectiveness to mean "if it works even once or twice it's effective, regardless of how many we torture?"
    Your inability to engage in a simple thought experiment is proof enough of your mental cowardice. No mushroom clouds of traps necessary, just a simple question to highlight your myopic position.
    No, your inability to cite specific evidence to support your case is proof that you don't have a case. You rely completely upon hypothetical situations like "what if john has a gun to your pregnant daughters head and sam knows where he is would you endorse torture then?"

    How about let's just dispense with your "what if's" and you just substantiate your position with evidence?
    Last edited by Lerxst; 05-28-09 at 09:21 PM.
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    Re: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

    Quote Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Such interrogation techniques have proven successful at extracting needed intel despite the fact that not every single interrogation attempt is guaranteed to extract needed information..

    I.E., it works X% of the time and X > 0.

    Does that make more sense to you?
    It makes perfect sense to me. Now lets see you put actual numbers derived from verifiable sources together and apply your formula.
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    Re: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

    Originally Posted by scourge99 View Post
    Wallow in denial if you wish. Intel extracted from coersive interrogation techniques have been effective despite the inherent level of uncertainity in their effectiveness.
    Yawn..... I guess you missed this memo.

    According to Ali Soufan, an FBI interrogator, waterboarding and other "enhanced interrogation" procedures caused a key Al Qaeda operative to clam up, not provide actionable intelligence as former Vice President Dick Cheney and others have claimed.

    Soufan provided gripping Senate testimony today. He related in detail how he was able to get Abu Zubaydah, a suspect who was believed to play a lead role in Al Qaeda, to talk.

    In my first interrogation of the terrorist Abu Zubaydah, who had strong links to al Qaeda's leaders and who knew the details of the 9/11 plot before it happened, I asked him his name. He replied with his alias. I then asked him, "how about if I call you Hani?" That was the name his mother nicknamed him as a child. He looked at me in shock, said "ok," and we started talking.

    Soufan was well suited to interrogate Abu Zubaydah. He had been involved in hundreds of other interrogations of Al Qaeda suspects. He told the committee about his experience successfully "breaking" an Al Qaeda operative known as Abu Jandal and others.

    Soufan told the subcommittee that after Abu Zubaydah was cooperating, a CIA team led by a contractor began to use increasingly abusive interrogation techniques - over Soufan's objections - and Abu Zubaydah stopped talking.

    Soufan is one of many interrogators whose experience proves that using physical force to "break" detainees is not an effective way to obtain information.
    See: David Danzig: FBI Interrogator: Waterboarding Does Not Work

    But, that's from the FBI's best interrogator. I wouldn't expect his testimony to carry any weight. It's not like he signed his great grandmothers's Bible ... in blood.
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    Re: Conservative radio host gets waterboarded, and lasts six seconds before.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ADK_Forever View Post
    But, that's from the FBI's best interrogator. I wouldn't expect his testimony to carry any weight. It's not like he signed his great grandmothers's Bible ... in blood.
    I ate a bible once. But in my defense I was very hungry and thought it was a really fancy phone book.
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