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Thread: North Korea conducts nuclear test

  1. #61
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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    Who gives a damn about "instructing" anyone? I'm not suggesting we go to the North Koreans sounding like Mr Rogers and saying "won't you be my neighbor?" I'm suggesting we find ways to give the North Korean people the opportunity to choose between a full belly and Kim's insanity. If that means toppling Kim and accepting some other dictator in his place, I'm ok with that.

    The goal is (or should be) a de-nuclearized North Korea. A democratic North Korea would be a bonus, but that's all.
    And how would you propose that we "give" the North Korean people the opportunity to choose, other than by exerting military force, which certainly won't happen under our current Administration.

    And what in Earth would make one think that the North Korean citizenry is aware that their leader is insane? All media is rigidly controlled in that unhappy State, so to what could they possibly compare?
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  2. #62
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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    No, interventionists are the ones who hate the US.
    Uh huh, and you want rogue loons to have nukes. You just don't have any credibility.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  3. #63
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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by celticlord View Post
    What is far from certain, however, is which choices will accomplish that and which choices will accomplish their demise.
    While that may be the case, using a nuclear weapon is clearly not going to ensure that the regime stays in power.

    The concern should be less that North Korea will behave irrationally and more that North Korea will behave rationally but erroneously.
    That would be the problem Sagan and Waltz have discussed. But that isn't the biggest concern. The biggest concern is an Asian nuclear arms race.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    I do think, though, that at the time the DPRK was founded, the threat was very real, and only really collapsed after the invasion of Iraq was deemed a disaster. The Iraq invasion, though, posed a real threat, as it was the first "preemptive invasion", which basically made the threat that the US could/would invade any nation it wanted without provocation. Considering the fact that the DPRK has historically been one of the US's biggest enemies, I think that the threat, while not incredibly real or pressing, is understandable when perceived in such a way.
    Eh. The US doesn't have the money nor the support from South Korea to invade. The notion that the US would sacrifice Seoul to invade North Korea is pretty much, IMO absolute evidence that the US won't attack barring North Korea using a nuke.

    I don't know exactly how true this is. Last I heard aid and trade to the DPRK were being further restricted by China, South Korea and Japan, which leads me to believe that the allocation of resources to military expenditures isn't the sole reason for the food crisis in the country.
    Maybe. But China is still the #1 supplier of fuel and food. Without China welfare, North Korea would rapidly lose the ability to keep the lights on.

    North Korea should be far more concerned with how long China is willing to support them.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    People also have these notions that an aggressive action by a nation will always be met with the destruction of that regime's power.
    When it comes to nuclear weapons, it is without a doubt. What makes you think that the World would let an unprovoked (or frankly even provoked) nuclear attack go without punishment?

    I don't have the slightest shred of doubt that China will make a move toward Taiwan at some point in the future. Does that mean they're going to lose control of their country? No, it means they're going to do it at a time when they believe the reward is worth the risk.
    That I seriously doubt. China won't use military. It will, as it is now, use economic power to simply force Taiwan to accept unification. Chinese FDI into Taiwan is massive and growing. China will simply wage economic warfare and bring Taiwan to its knees without firing a shot. The military spending is more geared towards relations with US and Russia. Besides, China knows that to take Taiwan, it will either have to take massive casualties or reduce the islands to rubble, neither of which is acceptable especially given the economic warfare alternative that is relatively cheap.

    Similarly, countries like NK or Iran may very well take action that you or I would consider irrational, because they may view things differently.
    The flaw in your argument is you think conventional warfare is the same as nuclear warfare. We didn't let Saddam hold Kuwait with purely conventional. what makes you think that North Korea knows it can get away with a nuclear strike?

    The view you're espousing is a nice one, because it would mean that no belligerent nation would ever do something risky and out of line. I think that's too much to hope for.
    Incorrect. The fatal flaw in your argument is treating conventional war as the same thing as nuclear war. The two have never, ever been the same.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    The reason why nobody will ever invade them is because they have 15,000 guns fixed on Seoul and could kill 1-3 million within 20 minutes. When you look at it from that perspective, their actions here are perfectly rational and even more dangerous.
    That and the cost of invading to the benefits are tiny. An invasion and disposal of Regime would result in millions of refugees into both China and South Korea. The economic impact would be massive upon both countries as would the reconstruction of North Korea. And even if North Korea didn't have nukes, no one frankly gives a **** enough to invade.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Or like when Russia invaded Georgia. Or like when Israel invaded Lebanon. Or like the conflict in Darfur. Nobody in those conflicts thought that we (or anyone else) would step in and stop it, and they were right.

    Fact remains that in the majority of conflicts where a perfect world would demand an international response, nobody in the real world does anything about it.
    Again, you make the fatal flaw of assuming that nuclear war is the same as conventional war. The discussion here was as evident from the first post about the use of nuclear weapons in North Korea and how North Korea has uses other than actually using the weapon.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    If they're backed into a corner with no way out, I can see it as a possibility.
    So don't back them into a corner. Of course anyone or any country backed into a corner fights without reservation.

    North Korea is dying, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them invade the south in a last ditch attempt at forceful reunification.
    That I find questionable, especially given the cult of personality that is being cultivated for the next generation. The recent talk seems more like "we don't like the current South Korean president" more than anything else.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    And who pray tell, would remove them from power? The United States under the administration of President Obama, who has assured us that small counties are no threat? I hardly think so.
    You really think that we'd do nothing if North Korea used a nuclear weapon on someone?

    No, you are seeing the first fruits of our abandonment of asstertiveness on the global stage.
    Huh. I wasn't aware that the US was suppose to be the world's police. Didn't you bash Democrats for that idea?
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post

    They have not proven they can actually deliver the device, but NK, while rather insane, is not a country of suicidal maniacs. This was more to get "respect" and concessions from the US and others. No the real fear here, that they are working with, as they have in the past, Iran, and Iran is using NK to cover for it's own nuclear program.
    As much as I give you crap for your other posts, I'm glad someone else understands this.

    Weapons do not always exist for the purpose of using them in combat. A great many people here do not understand that.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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