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Thread: North Korea conducts nuclear test

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Kernel Sanders View Post
    The Constitution grants the power to declare war to Congress, and to Congress alone. Are you seriously denying this?

    Source [Cornell University Law School | US Constitution Article 1 Section 8]
    Once again you avoid; I clearly asked you to please show us where it is stated in the Constitution that a state of war cannot exist between our nation and another unless the Congress formally declares war.

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Gibberish View Post
    X performs A happens and B occurs.
    Y performs A, B occurs again.

    How is a like effect to a similar cause illogical?
    That is a very simplistic view on the complex issues being discussed.

    Did you read the joint resolution? Do you recall that Iraq invaded a sovereign nation and member of the UN and was ejected? Do you recall that Iraq then signed agreements with the UN and defied them for the next decade?

    There are vast differences between Iraq and North Korea, yet you want to argue this is about X and Y?

    But then it also begs the question; why are you arguing we should invade North Korea?

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    What does he need missiles for? He could do significant damage to South Korea with a really big slingshot.
    True, but the idea is to lure the U.S. into a fight by attacking S. Korea. The absordaty is N. Korea really doesn't have many allies except maybe Iran.

    Now, granted two rogue nations with radical dictators who possess nuclear weapons capabilities may very well sound like a threat, but let's not forget the key word here - capabilities. They don't have a formidable nuclear weapons arsenal nor do either have powerful enough launch vehicles (i.e., ballistic missles) w/the range to strike any enemy outside of a 150 mile radius per media reports. So, when you really get down to it, N. Korea and Iran are more of a nausence than a real threat. Monitor both countries closely, but I wouldn't lose much sleep over either. It's more of a "look world! See what we can do" display than any real threat.

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Once again you avoid; I clearly asked you to please show us where it is stated in the Constitution that a state of war cannot exist between our nation and another unless the Congress formally declares war.
    I'll answer that question for him...(I can't believe I just typed that! )

    Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution reads in part, towit:

    "The Congress shall have Power ....to declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;..."

    Thus, until Congress votes accordingly to declare war against another country, or in the case of radical terrorist factions, the dangerous entity, i.e., Al-Quaida (spell check) or the Taliban, then a state of war does not exist between the Unitied States and said country or entity.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 05-29-09 at 06:26 PM.

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    That is a very simplistic view on the complex issues being discussed.

    Did you read the joint resolution? Do you recall that Iraq invaded a sovereign nation and member of the UN and was ejected? Do you recall that Iraq then signed agreements with the UN and defied them for the next decade?

    There are vast differences between Iraq and North Korea, yet you want to argue this is about X and Y?
    I was simply arguing your stance that it was "illogical". I never said invading one country vs the other wasn't debatable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    But then it also begs the question; why are you arguing we should invade North Korea?
    When have I argued we should invade North Korea?
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I'll answer that question for him...(I can't believe I just typed that! )

    Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution reads in part, towit:

    "The Congress shall have Power ....to declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;..."

    Thus, until Congress votes accordingly to declare war against another country, or in the case of radical terrorist factions, the dangerous entity, i.e., Al-Quaida (spell check) or the Taliban, then a state of war does not exist between the Unitied States and said country or entity.
    Once again you avoid; I clearly asked you to please show us where it is stated in the Constitution that a state of war cannot exist between our nation and another unless the Congress formally declares war.

    With your argument, one would have to believe that a State of War never existed between the US and North Korea in the Korean War or the Vietnam War or the Gulf War or many other conflicts where no such formal declaration occurred.

    Yet if we look at the definition a "state of war" can indeed exist by Presidential action outside of a "formal" Congressional declaration and hardly be construed as being “illegal.”

    Was the "Joint Resolution" a formal declaration of war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    or in the case of radical terrorist factions, the dangerous entity, i.e., Al-Quaida (spell check) or the Taliban,
    How does a nation declare war on a political ideal? The Taliban or Al Qaeda are not nations; how can Congress formally declare war on them?

    Hamilton’s words:

    "... it is the peculiar and exclusive province of Con-
    Congress, when the nation is at peace, to change that
    state [of peace] into a state of war ... [but] when a
    foreign nation declares or openly and avowedly makes
    war upon the United States, they are then by the very
    fact already at war and any declaration on the part of
    Congress is nugatory; it is at least unnecessary."

    [Quoted in James Grafton Rogers, WORLD POLICING
    AND
    THE CONSTITUTION (Boston: 1945), p. 36.]

    This is the prescient argument:

    While Article I, Section 8, of the U.S. Constitution provides that "The Congress shall have Power ... To declare War," neither Clause 11 nor any other provision of the Constitution states in so many words that Congress must pass a declaration of war before the President can legally order the nation's military forces into foreign hostilities. Even after the President has ordered the troops into conflict, he is not required by any clause of the Constitution to request a congressional declaration of war. Moreover, the absence of such a declaration does not tie the President's hands in the conduct of the war, as long as adequate appropriations for raising, supporting, maintaining, and transporting the military forces and otherwise funding the war effort are forthcoming from Congress.

    History suggests also that a state of war does not mandate any formal congressional declaration:

    Eight undeclared major wars were:
    1. The U.S. naval war with France [1798-1800]*;
    2. The first war against the Barbary pirate states of North Africa [1801-1805]*;
    3. The second war against the Barbary states [1815]*;
    4. The Mexican-U.S.A. conflicts immediately preceeding American entrance into World War I [1914-1917]*;
    5. The Korean War [1950-1953]*;
    6. The Vietnam War [1961-1975]*;
    7. The Persian Gulf War [1991]*;
    8. The Kosovo-Yugoslav War [1999]*.

    *Dates of America's direct involvement in the war.


    Were these illegal? Not by any stretch.

    Here's a long list of other engagements that were also UNdeclared:

    The many other undeclared U.S. military actions overseas included armed intervention into--

    A revolution in Hawaii [1893];

    The Philippine Insurrection [1899-1902];

    China during the Boxer Rebellion [1900];

    The Moro Wars, suppressing a Muslim rebellion in the
    Philippines [1901-1913];

    The Panamaian rebellion, assisting the rebels in their
    efforts to secede from Colombia [1903];

    Cuba, to suppress a rebellion and restore order [1906-
    1909];

    Various rebellions and civil wars in Central America
    [1909-1933];

    Cuba, to "defuse" an armed uprising [1912];

    Haiti, making it a virtual protectorate of the U.S.A.
    [1915-1934];

    The Dominican Republic, occupying the country until a
    constitutionally elected government was installed
    [1916-1924];

    Cuba, to obtain the overthrow of a regime that had come
    to power via an armed revolt and coup d'etat [1917];

    The Russian Civil War, siding with the opponents of the
    Bolshevik (Communist) regime [1919-1921];

    Lebanon, to counter a Syrian-aided Muslim revolt and
    restore order [1958];

    A civil war in the Dominican Republic [1965];

    Cambodia, destroying supply centers and staging areas for
    North Vietnamese military operations in South Vietnam
    during the Vietnam War [1969-1970];

    Cambodia in the Mayaguez affair, forcing surrender of a
    U.S. merchant ship and crew seized by Cambodian Communist
    military forces [1975];

    Iran, in an unsuccessful attempt to rescue the hostages
    taken by Irani militants when, in 1979, they seized the
    U.S. Embassy in Teheran [1980];

    The armed struggle among political factions in Lebanon
    [1982-1984];

    Grenada, overthrowing the Marxist-Leninist, pro-Cuban
    regime, expelling the Cuban agents and paramilitary
    personnel, and allowing a political coalition committed
    to democratic elections and favorably disposed toward
    American interests to assume governing power [1983];

    Panama, overthrowing the regime of dictator and narcotics
    smuggler Manuel Noriega [1989];

    Somalia, seeking to end the violence and disorder in
    that East African country [1992-1994];

    Haiti, to restore order and reinstate Jean-Bertrand
    Aristide, the democratically elected President of the
    country [1994];

    The ethnic warfare in Bosnia, imposing a ceasefire
    and, in effect, establishing a U.N.-U.S.A. protec-
    torate over Bosnia [1994-1995].

    These numerous undeclared U.S. military actions also included:

    The naval war waged against German submarines and other
    Axis naval craft in the North Atlantic immediately
    prior to American entrance into World War II [1941];

    The naval "quarantine" (i.e., blockade) maintained
    around Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis [1962];

    Aerial bombardment of Libya, striking a missile site
    on one occasion and, on another, bombing terrorist-
    related targets in Tripoli and Benghazi [1986];

    "Operation Desert Shield"--President Bush's sending
    U.S. troops to Saudi Arabia, in the wake of the Iraqi
    occupation of and huge military buildup in Kuwait;
    [1990]


    The continuing presence of U.S. aircraft carriers in
    the Persian Gulf and the maintenance of no-fly zones
    over Iraq, the latter, in effect, establishing pro-
    tectorates over Kurdish and Shiite regions of that
    country; [1991-1999];

    The U.S. missile attack on Iraq, launched on Presi-
    dent Clinton's orders and aimed at the Iraqi govern-
    ment's intelligence headquarters in Baghdad [1993];

    Missile strikes against Iraqi military installations
    in southern Iraq [1996];

    Cruise missile attacks against terrorist-related
    targets in Afghanistan and Sudan [1998].

  7. #147
    Why so serious?

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Slippery Slope View Post
    Despite the fact that there is no official peace treaty between North Korea and the United States, it's not quite correct to say that we're at war (even in a technical sense) because, technically, we weren't at war to begin with. The 1950-53 conflict was conducted under the aegis of the United Nations and was dubbed a "police action" by President Harry Truman. Congress never actually declared war, nor did it authorize a military engagement.
    So what do you reckon killed the 54,000+ Americans on the Korean peninsula between 1950 and 1953? Sure looked like a war from the photos I've seen.
    "I believe in a Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."

    --Albert Einstein, 1929

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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Eight undeclared major wars were:
    1. The U.S. naval war with France [1798-1800]*;
    2. The first war against the Barbary pirate states of North Africa [1801-1805]*;
    Congress gave approval for this war
    3. The second war against the Barbary states [1815]*;
    See above
    4. The Mexican-U.S.A. conflicts immediately preceeding American entrance into World War I [1914-1917]*;
    Congress gave approval to send the Army to the Border
    5. The Korean War [1950-1953]*;
    Under UN Actions I suggest you read the Documents
    6. The Vietnam War [1961-1975]*;
    7. The Persian Gulf War [1991]*;
    Congress approved Military Actions
    8. The Kosovo-Yugoslav War [1999]*.
    Once again UN Resolution
    *Dates of America's direct involvement in the war.









    These numerous undeclared U.S. military actions also included:

    The naval war waged against German submarines and other
    Axis naval craft in the North Atlantic immediately
    prior to American entrance into World War II [1941];
    US Never attack any German Uboat prio to the German Decleration of War on the US, While we had some personal on Lend-Lease Four Stackers none of them flew the US Flag learn some WWII History

    The naval "quarantine" (i.e., blockade) maintained
    around Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis [1962];
    Congress approved these action

    Aerial bombardment of Libya, striking a missile site
    on one occasion and, on another, bombing terrorist-
    related targets in Tripoli and Benghazi [1986];
    Congress approved the two attack in direct respounce to the German Night Club Bombing and the Pan Am Bombing

    "Operation Desert Shield"--President Bush's sending
    U.S. troops to Saudi Arabia, in the wake of the Iraqi
    occupation of and huge military buildup in Kuwait;
    [1990]
    A UN Action that was approved by Congress


    The continuing presence of U.S. aircraft carriers in
    the Persian Gulf and the maintenance of no-fly zones
    over Iraq, the latter, in effect, establishing pro-
    tectorates over Kurdish and Shiite regions of that
    country; [1991-1999];
    UN Action and part of the Gulf War Cease fire and yes Congress approved it

    The U.S. missile attack on Iraq, launched on Presi-
    dent Clinton's orders and aimed at the Iraqi govern-
    ment's intelligence headquarters in Baghdad [1993];
    In Direct violation of the Gulf War Cease fire Accourd and Congress was consulted

    Missile strikes against Iraqi military installations
    in southern Iraq [1996];
    See above

    Cruise missile attacks against terrorist-related
    targets in Afghanistan and Sudan [1998].[/I][/quote]
    Direct attacks approved by Congress after the first World Trade Center Attack

  9. #149
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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Semantics are fun.

    it's not really blue, it's more of a bluey blue but not officially blue.
    Last edited by Gibberish; 05-31-09 at 12:45 PM.
    "Gold gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head."
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    Re: North Korea conducts nuclear test

    Quote Originally Posted by Moon View Post
    So what do you reckon killed the 54,000+ Americans on the Korean peninsula between 1950 and 1953? Sure looked like a war from the photos I've seen.
    It's always amusing how Liberals think by labeling something as being something else, it will make it something else.

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